Intellectual property.

[Seth_]

There are many albums that I've purchased more than once. For example, in my younger days I listened to AC/DC's Back In Black so much, that I wore out the tape and re-purchased it 3 or 4 times. When the cd came out, I purchased it as well.

Now as far as I'm concerned, I partially own the rights to those songs. If I ever lost the cd, I would in no way feel that I'm "stealing" by downloading it from a Torrent or P2P site. Ditto for an operating system.

Agree or disagree?

BTW- Here in Canada, downloading songs from a P2P is legal. Then again, so is pot! Heh heh heh.

[thelamberts]

Hi Seth

I couldn't agree with you more.

I am a Canuck as well and we have always paid what amounts to a VAT (Value Added Tax) when we buy recordable media; so we can do just that; copy stuff we like.

As you may have heard recently our Canadian Bands having been getting together and lobbying against CRIA (our version of the US based RIAA) to NOT persue Canuck downloaders.

If I download a song and I like it; I buy the CD.

Only in Canada eh!....Pity (just like the tea)

Indi Bands are doing the right thing in MHO of doing it all themselves (Production, Marketing, etc.) and circumnavigating the "Record Industry Machine" which sucks bands dry; that Pink Floyd sang about.


As mentioned before IMHO

[Nick Grana]

BTW- Here in Canada, downloading songs from a P2P is legal. Then again, so is pot! Heh heh heh.

The U.S. should learn some things from our northern neighbor.

[Seth_]

Hi Lamberts.

A typical cd from a mainstream band often contains one or two good songs, and the rest are horrible fillers to fulfill the contract. So I'm going to pay $15.00 to $40.00 for two good songs and make the producer/band millionaires? I don't think so!

Instead, I'll download the album and preview it. If I feel it's worth the money, I'll buy it.

As far as an operating system goes. I own an XP product key, if for whatever reason I can no longer use the cd, I'd download XP and use my product key.

[oracle128]

There are many situations where it can be morally justifiable to break the law - unfortunately there is a difference between what 'should' be legal and what 'is' legal. Couple that with the relatively new medium that is the internet, the more or less anonymity of P2P downloading, and the current limitation of not being able to determine who is morally justified in downloading something and who isn't; it's just not feasible to allow downloading. How does a content provider get a guarantee you will go out and purchase their stuff after trialing it via an illegal download? How can a P2P system determine whether or not you already have the rights to that particular content?

The problem is one of control. The copyright holders want to have complete control over everything you purchase off them, and consumers want complete freedom to do with their purchase whatever they want. No one is willing to negotiate. Personally, I'd be in favor of a DRM scheme where I didn't have to pay for the same content 10 different times, as long as it didn't breach my privacy. Unfortunately, we don't have the technology for such a system, so we're stuck with the corporate fat cats doing everything they can do milk more money out of the consumer.

[Snurfen]

The problem is that the fat-cat record producers did't embrace the technology early enough and lost money.
You want to see a fat-cat squeal? Turn his revenue flood into a trickle.
Corporate clout (usually) = good lobbyists
ergo laws get changed and the little guy gets squashed.

I think it's called "Capitalism" or something like that

[renegade600]

you all can justify breaking the law all you want. If it is illegal and you break it then you are nothing but a thief. If you get caught and punished, you deserved whatever punishment you get.

The law is the law, and some future date that law you are breaking could come back and haunt you.

[Snurfen]

Actually, we are talking about two differnet things - intelectual property doesnt strictly apply to music. That's got writers copyright, performers royalties and the bit where the producer carves is pound of flesh.
Software on the other hand, falls nicely into inelectual property.

[thelamberts]

Hi there

You can all theorize over what is legal and what is not legal but make sure that you realize this is not international law and you can only speak for what is or isn't (legal) in your own country and as Seth and I mentioned; it is allowed in Canada because of the VAT that CRIA receives. How the CRIA distributes VAT with artists is their buisness.

If downloading music ever comes to be illegal in this country; I cannot see our country suing little old ladies that don't have computers or suing minors like other Recording associations have other countires.

I wonder how anyone (Internationally that is) will prevent copying from the radio....hmmmm....

[Seth_]

Originally Posted by renegade600

you all can justify breaking the law all you want. If it is illegal and you break it then you are nothing but a thief.

This is simply illogical. I don't think you thought this statement through. For example:

I purchase an XP cd and product key. The fragile media (cd) becomes scratched, so I download XP and use my product key. I haven't stolen anything by doing this, I'm just retrieving what I already purchased.

The cost of XP has nothing to do with the CD, and everything to do with the product key. Now if I downloaded an illegal product key, THEN I would be a thief.

[renegade600]

Originally Posted by thelamberts

Hi there

You can all theorize over what is legal and what is not legal but make sure that you realize this is not international law and you can only speak for what is or isn't (legal) in your own country and as Seth and I mentioned; it is allowed in Canada because of the VAT that CRIA receives. How the CRIA distributes VAT with artists is their buisness.

If downloading music ever comes to be illegal in this country; I cannot see our country suing little old ladies that don't have computers or suing minors like other Recording associations have other countires.

not exactly so, if you ever plan to step foot in some countries, you better not violate that countries law. Look at what happened to that guy from Russia when he violated US laws from his own country where what he did was not illegal. The minute he step foot in the US for a visit he was arrested. Charges was eventually dropped but this has happened several times over the last few years.

nothing will stop big business, not even borders.

[Snurfen]

missed that point myself. I have about 300 pcs running xp on one site and 400 on the other.
we have a corp licence for all and sundry that we deploy, but if a machine has a licence on it ex-factory, we use that.
I've got a big MS cd holder and it has stacks of cd's in it - some from the bulk licensing service, others from ones I've made copies of.
If the machine goes belly up and needs an install I'll slap any old cd in and use the appropriate licence as I see fit.
As you say Seth_, I'm not stealing anything.
Now if you want a good laugh about a mix and match approach to licensing, read the gumpf that comes with your Linux distro! Nightmare.

[thelamberts]

Originally Posted by renegade600

nothing will stop big business, not even borders.

Oh; I don't know about that. Remember back when Metallica was suing everyone who used Napster?

I was one of the ones mentioned / tagged for sueing in the case. As soon as they (their lawyers / whomever) discovered I was a Canadian; I was dropped from the case and my Napster account was reestablished. During that period I travelled extensivley throughout the US; back and forth from Canada and was never once nailed because of downloading.

[renegade600]

Originally Posted by thelamberts

Oh; I don't know about that. Remember back when Metallica was suing everyone who used Napster?

I was one of the ones mentioned / tagged for sueing in the case. As soon as they (their lawyers / whomever) discovered I was a Canadian; I was dropped from the case and my Napster account was reestablished. During that period I travelled extensivley throughout the US; back and forth from Canada and was never once nailed because of downloading.

If they wanted to, they could have gotten you once you step foot in the US. like adobe did with the russian. But you were not a big enough thief to worry about. So they were not watching for you.

[thelamberts]

moot point Dan