Better type it right [Archive] - Cyber Tech Help Support Forums

oracle128

July 4th, 2006, 07:09 AM

your site is confusing as s###If you find this site confusing, there's definitely a problem, because the same type of format is used for just about any forum on the internet. If you have any suggestions on how to improve the site layout/style/format beyond that of every other forum, feel free to share them and I'm sure Mishy will consider them.
More and more though, I have noticed people not getting answers, on what to you guy's, are probably easy questions. Maybe you're tired of answering the same questions over again, but this is a help forum. If you're tired of posting answers to easy questions, then direct them to the topic that would help.I've said this before on another thread, but I'm pretty sure I speak for everybody when I say no individual post gets ignored on purpose. The only reasons a post typically goes unanswered is because the viewer doesn't know the answer (or isn't looking to answer it in the first place), a member who knows the answer doesn't see it (remember, we're staffed by volunteers, not a co-ordinated round-the-clock help desk), or doesn't have time to post an answer at that point, or any number of problems with the post: it's purposely poorly written (eg. 1337 sp3ak) and/or the question misunderstood, resulting in members unwilling or unable to provide the necessary help; it's missing vital information that should have been provided out of common sense; the poster is acting rudely; etc.

Though, seeing the same exact question several times in the same page of the same forum (whether they be from the same user or not), I can see why an individual member would rather spend their limited time on other problems (this has happened before, for an example, search the Windows XP forum for topics about how to format/reinstall XP; though to date, I've never seen any one of those topics go unanswered). Could you provide some examples of "easy questions" older than a few days that have yet to be answered?
I'd better type this right, cause on your site if you mess up, and try to go back and edit, it erases what you typed!Don't know what to say about this one. The expected behaviour of the Edit function in vBulletin is to convert your post to a text area, allowing you to edit the post's source (the original text and vB/smily/HTML code) and Save it, dynamically and AJAX-style; or failing that, take you to the 'Advanced Edit' page, the old-fasioned way. Neither method should result in your original post text being erased from the text area. I suspect a browser problem. You should probably make a post about it in Internet & Browsers.

Pi rules

July 4th, 2006, 09:12 PM

...try to go back and edit, it erases what you typed!
That isn't what usually happens, try oracle's suggestion. You could always copy your post and paste until it gets fixed.

More and more though, I have noticed people not getting answers, on what to you guy's, are probably easy questions. Maybe you're tired of answering the same questions over again, but this is a help forum. If you're tired of posting answers to easy questions, then direct them to the topic that would help.
Sadly, there aren't enough people to help and not every question can be answered. There are some very knowlegable people here, but they cannot answer every single question. Some posts are hard to comprehend, which I can understand if the poster's native language is different, so that can be difficult. Everyone here is a volunteer and nobody is paid to answer every question.
I hope to see better(ANY?) responses to questions to people that are new to PC's.
Since this is a free forum where anyone can participate (as long as they follow the guidelines), there will be some less than adequate responses that the moderators may not see in time or at all. If you see an offensive post, PM the moderator of the forum about it or use the "Report Bad Post" button on the top right-hand side of the post.

I am very sorry that you think this way about this great forum.

black mirror

July 4th, 2006, 10:55 PM

Everyone is entitled to an opinion....http://www.smileypad.com/v224/Holidays/Guitar.gif.. sorry i have new smilies to play with.

smurfy

July 4th, 2006, 10:57 PM

Hi Kaveman1969.

Apart from the criticisms which I think the other members above have covered pretty well I think I may understand your "edit" problem.

If you try to use your browser's BACK function to return to the submit post page, it will take you to a new blank form, not the form you had just completed.
To edit your mistakes, use the http://images.cybertechhelp.com/forumimages/buttons_cth/edit.gif button at the lower right hand corner of your post.

sho-dan

July 5th, 2006, 12:17 AM

I use to have the same problem way back when, after editing your post,click the Preview Post button(post is saved in this mode) and if it looks right then post it.Then if you want to reedit your post after its been submited,click edit >Go Advance,then edit your post > Preview Changes(looks good) click Save Changes.Try that
someone mention Copy/Paste your post,if it gets lost, you still have it http://www.smileypad.com/v224/Happy/2Thumbs.gif

Rainbow32

July 5th, 2006, 07:12 PM

I suggest you go find yourself another forum of computer help.....
I know of one where it's very rare to find a post unanswered. Lots of MVP's there as well.
Virtual Dr. I did post the link but it was edited out.

Snurfen

July 5th, 2006, 09:45 PM

Well explained folks, I remember being comfused at the vBulletin editor at first (and again when it was modified about two years ago).

kaveman1969 - most people look at the "unanswered topics" button in "quick links" when they are in a helping frame of mind with the express desire of answering the unanswered, thereby helping out the stranded folk.
Bare in mind also that it is high summer in the northern hemisphere, so most of us are outdoors as much as possible ;)

black mirror

July 5th, 2006, 10:05 PM

Bare in mind also that it is high summer in the northern hemisphere, so most of us are outdoors as much as possible ;)

I would be if i had a garden:rotflmao:

G_Dem

July 6th, 2006, 12:39 AM

I have noticed people not getting answers, on what to you guy's, are probably easy questions. Maybe you're tired of answering the same questions over again, but this is a help forum. If you're tired of posting answers to easy questions, then direct them to the topic that would help.

I think the majority of regular posters on this forum would never ignore a post if they have the answer, even if they have said the same thing a million times. Everyone has different knowledge here and different expertise, so when certain people are not on the forum for a couple of days it doesnt mean questions will not be answered eventually. Every so often posts do go un answered, but I think its mostly due to people who reply to there own threads which makes it look like its being dealt with.

kaveman1969

July 6th, 2006, 01:17 AM

I'm not knocking the help that is given on this forum when it is given, lufbra, but unlike a lot of people here,"pal", many others don't live on message boards. It can get VERY confusing posting a message here, especially if you are new to a PC. I have posted and didn't know if it "took" until I logged out and then back in. I stated in my message that this forum has been VERY helpful to me, and only said that I see a lot of post's, that I would think would be a fairly simple question to most here, sit for days unanswered. No, I don't think people should sit by their monitor 24\7 looking to help someone, as you said, that's what pay sites are for. But don't call my post "trash" when I point out valid issues. Not everyone knows as much as a lot of people here do about a computer, some know nothing. And they probably already feel dumb, knowing that they're posting an easy question. Then they get no reply and it makes them feel even more stupid. And, maybe I'm dumb, but I still can't correct a message without having to re-type the whole thing, and I'm on message boards quite a bit. Dave

sho-dan

July 6th, 2006, 01:50 AM

Hello kaveman1969

Did smurfys and my info help you in your posting and editing problem
http://www.smileypad.com/v224/Happy/Nodding.gif

kaveman1969

July 6th, 2006, 02:28 AM

Yes, sho-dan, your tips helped. Still trying to get the hang of this board. The other night I posted the same message 5 times in a row, because I didn't know the message had "taken". I'm thankful that the "don't post twice" guards didn't catch THAT one. Didn't mean to come off as bashing in my first post, but being new to a PC can be very frustrating, and getting scolded for asking for help the wrong way, especially when you don't know you're doing it, can be very, VERY frustrating. Thanks for the help, Dave

sho-dan

July 6th, 2006, 03:03 AM

Your're welcome http://www.smileypad.com/v224/Happy/2Thumbs.gif

lufbra

July 6th, 2006, 03:58 AM

In your Control Panel (My Control Panel) click on Options, then near to the bottom of that page there are 3 different settings for showing the "reply" box/window, it might be worth messing around with that untill you find one to your liking.

kaveman1969

July 6th, 2006, 04:59 AM

Thank you for all your help everyone, you too lufbra, sorry if I came off as a d***. I'm no slouch on a PC, but no whiz either. I was just speaking on behalf of the frustrated ones, myself one of them most of the time. Thanks for the reply. Dave

lufbra

July 6th, 2006, 05:08 AM

That's okay, just buy a round of beers for everyone here, and we'll let you off, mines a pint of Ruddles County!! :p

PS. Don't buy Mr Bean one, he'll just moan about the quality of it. :eek

kaveman1969

July 6th, 2006, 05:15 AM

Done!!:happy:

oracle128

July 6th, 2006, 06:32 AM

Well, there is a video tutorial on how to register, another one on how to post a question, and one more on how to post a reply. I've never watched any of them, but I'm sure they're top quality and cover everything in detail, so even someone who's never seen a computer before could do it. They're over in the aptly-named Site Help (http://www.cybertechhelp.com/sitehelp/) section (a link to which can be found on every page of the forum). I really don't know how much easier it can get than that; I mean, the help is right there, in an obvious section. Perhaps it's the user's fault for a lack of common sense, or simply being lazy and not willing to help themselves?

AnnMarie

July 6th, 2006, 08:10 AM

Perhaps it's the user's fault for a lack of common sense, or simply being lazy and not willing to help themselves?

I dont think so oracle128. It takes a little bit of time and concentration to navigate a new site. It's easy for some of us to be blasé about the links here, however you must remember that people are often stressed out when posting for help. I know, I've been there. :)

oracle128

July 6th, 2006, 10:01 AM

It's easy for some of us to be blasé about the links here, however you must remember that people are often stressed out when posting for help.So in other words, it's the fault of the user. Unless they're expecting the front page to be nothing but a big neon sign in the middle "PRESS LEFT MOUSE BUTTON ON THIS BUTTON FOR HELP", which we of course force them to read? The location of CTH's help link is quite ingenious, actually. Where do you find help within a program? The top menu, on the far right. It's no coincidence this is exacly where the CTH link is, too (well, more or less, it's close enough). Human-Computer Interaction, 101.

AnnMarie

July 6th, 2006, 10:20 AM

So in other words, it's the fault of the user

No. Once again, I dont share your view regarding this issue oracle128.

My view is that you need to cut new members some slack.

<Long sentence warning> Once they get over their initial shock at the problem that brought them here (cold feet and hands etc and I would suspect that many new members are in a mild form of shock when they first post a problem), when they have a reply that reassures them that someone will help them, they will begin to relax and (as time permits) investigate the links on this site.

Mr Bean

July 6th, 2006, 10:33 AM

PS. Don't buy Mr Bean one, he'll just moan about the quality of it. :eek

As if!!!

uripyores

July 6th, 2006, 11:57 AM

It takes a little bit of time and concentration to navigate a new site.I completely agree, when you get used to a site you tend to forget about what it was like when you first came to it. After a few weeks or months they seem like different places. Well they do with me anyway. :dizzy:

oracle128

July 6th, 2006, 12:30 PM

So, the site designer does everything in their power to help out the user - providing video tutorials and good user interface design considerations (apart from forcing the tutorial content at them).

The new user, rushing, shocked, dazed and confused, disregards this content designed to help them, and goes and posts without a clue as to what they're doing. They then blame the site.

Whose fault is it, then?

AnnMarie

July 6th, 2006, 01:12 PM

The way I see it is, it's a "no fault" situation.

It's a "mistake" which will resolve itself over time.

z1p

July 6th, 2006, 06:33 PM

The new user, rushing, shocked, dazed and confused, disregards this content designed to help them, and goes and posts without a clue as to what they're doing. They then blame the site.oracle, I think your overreacting a bit to what has been said here. For a forum novice, especially one that is unsure in their ability to use a computer, taking the step to post can be intimidating. I can understand someone feeling put off if the first post to a forum is met with a brusque or rude response. I try to look at the user's post count and keep that in mind when reminding them on forum rules and etiquette, but I know there are times when I could be more tactful. But again, that is something can be said for most if not all of us here and elsewhere.

One of the toughest things I've found with being a mod is keeping my attitude in check and biting my tongue. At times this becomes difficult either because of 'real life' or because of the going ons at the forum itself. I have to believe that this thread is partly in response to various other threads going on these days, which don't put this forum in the best light. The main reason I chose to help out here is I found it to be friendly and helpful for both the novice and 'expert' alike. I felt that many of the tech forums had a feeling to them that is less than welcoming, but not this place.

Right now there is a bit of turbulence in this place and hopefully it will run its course soon and we can all live in peace and harmony ;). Seriously, I think this is a top notch forum and hope others feel the same, but I can understand and accept that others may feel differently.

If someone isn't happy with things as they are here they have many options. They can express themselves in a post, but they should also be mindful of others feelings and how their post comes across. They also have the option of taking a vacation from the forum or leaving permanently. I just hope that all can behave reasonably well and realize that there is no need to attack the forum or its members, both here and elsewhere.

I also hope kaveman and other new (and future) members see that both the mods and members are here to help as they can and they feel comfortable posting their questions.

As far as posts not getting answered, that happens sometimes more than others. Posts don't get answered for various reasons. Sometimes its that members are mods are busy with other things and don't feel they can take on the commitment of helping out in a new thread. Even a 'simple' problem can take a while to resolve. I think it is even worst to start helping someone and not finish than to not step in at all. If no-one has responded to a post, someone may step in, but most times if someone starts helping out, others will not step.

Sometimes a post will get missed. I really don't think you see cases where the people around here look at a post and think that's a stupid question, I'm not going too waste my time trying to help.

I know I've rambled on here a bit, but one last thing. kaveman (and others), if you have problems using the forum or with how some of the features work. Either post in the comments and Suggestion forums or if feel uncomfortable posting the question in a public forum, feel free to PM me. While the mods do not want to deal with tech problems in PMs, we are here to help the members out with the site and will respond to those type of questions in PMs.

black mirror

July 6th, 2006, 06:47 PM

Well i have found something out today i have only just noticed.. and i have been here a while:D
The empty folder optionin the private mesaages.. before i was going through them tick tick ticking the ones to delete.. now with one tick .." poof "they have all gone... which goes to prove even the blondest of members can learn something new. and i am not ashamed to say it out loud....

(Waits for responses from BP members along the lines of.. cor blimey gal u blind or what???:D )

Snurfen

July 6th, 2006, 09:07 PM

oracle, I think your overreacting a bit to what has been said here. For a forum novice, especially one that is unsure in their ability to use a computer, taking the step to post can be intimidating.
This is so true z1p, as witnessed by a lot of people making a first post, then feeling too timid to follow up. Quite often this is related to them also loosing the link to the site.
I know quite a few members who now have very high post counts, who sat on the side for quite a few months for either of the two reasons I just mentioned.

Personally, I think a warm greeting to a first or very low post count is vital to encourage a feeling of inclusion. It is very often met with a big thank you from the new member, as they instantly feel "part of the gang".

I understand fully kaveman's thoughts, though I did mistake the tone at first. Thankfully, it was cleared up in his subsequent posts.

Never underestimate two key points, a persons shyness to posting on a forum for the first few visits and also the fact that they may be messageboard novices whilst being IT experts! Or a mixture of both, or neither ;)

black mirror

July 6th, 2006, 09:17 PM

i have noticed on some forums there is a introduce yourself thread.. just to say hello .....

PurestLight

July 6th, 2006, 09:28 PM

I've seen those....personally, I'd feel like a right berk and too self conscious to do so. Not sure why.

Id rather sidle in and establish myself quietly. Having said that, this is the only forum Ive ever got established in.

Ive always felt welcome here, whether I actually am or not is another matter lol, so that says something about how well the site is run, set up, and patronised.

I couldnt navigate my way out of a paper bag, so I wouldnt dream of commenting on that side. Suffice to say, Ive always 'got there' in the end so it must be good!
http://forums.spybot.info/images/smilies/animated/banana.gif

black mirror

July 6th, 2006, 09:57 PM

PurestLight

July 6th, 2006, 10:03 PM

Not to my knowledge....:D

black mirror

July 6th, 2006, 10:07 PM

Not to my knowledge....:D

I dont think you are even guilty of posting an unfunny joke... you are the CTH Brat Pack Mother superior:D

z1p

July 6th, 2006, 10:47 PM

I dont think you are even guilty of posting an unfunny joke... you are the CTH Brat Pack Mother superior:DNo but PL may have been Lost a number of times though. ;)

PurestLight

July 6th, 2006, 10:50 PM

You must be psychic - Im just watching ep 11 as we speak. Spooky!

black mirror

July 6th, 2006, 10:56 PM

You must be psychic - Im just watching ep 11 as we speak. Spooky!

cant get into the second series at all... missed so many i dont know what is happening...:D

z1p

July 6th, 2006, 10:56 PM

You must be psychic - Im just watching ep 11 as we speak. Spooky!Not that I know of, its that I just can't pass up a challenge.

PurestLight

July 6th, 2006, 11:00 PM

Oh BM youre missing a treat then. I realised Ive seen 11 and 12, now Im on 13/14 instead. You shd try to catch up. I missed it when it first started, then got hooked after ep 4 or so. so I bought the series from Amazon in US. Now Im pegging my way through Season 2 which i think is possibly better than 1 :D

black mirror

July 6th, 2006, 11:03 PM

kaveman1969

July 7th, 2006, 05:22 AM

lufbra

July 7th, 2006, 05:35 AM

kaveman, if you look around you'll find many a post that took time in replying to, some may never have been answered at all!!

You have to realize that folks aren't here 24/7, it's not their duty to be here, they don't "punch in" and start "helping". Nobody is gonna get fired if help isn't provided........If the question can be answered you can be sure it will be.

As a side note, wouldn't this forum look pretty darned stupid if every post asking for help was titled HELP? Doh, isn't that what the forum is all about, the poster could have least given some idea as to what help he/she might be referring to in his/her topic title.

uripyores

July 7th, 2006, 05:38 AM

oracle128

July 7th, 2006, 05:48 AM

I'm all for helping new users learn how to use the forum, learn netiquette and such. But I don't see how actions such as posting the same question across multiple categories or completely off-category, hijacking another thread, writing in poor English, lacking even basic details in a request for help, etc, could be viewed as 'a mistake' and should be forgiven. These are deliberate actions that serve no purpose other than to hinder the troubleshooting process, and are only the result of a user not taking the time to read the forum rules or help services provided for them; not to be confused with actual mistakes, such as using the wrong terminology, provided irrelevant details/specs, posting in a category that's not correct but is close enough, Replying instead of Editing, etc, which I'm more than happy to forgive/ignore/correct/instruct, depending on the context.

I've tended to use the analogy of a room full of conversations (maybe like a party) a couple of times; you don't interrupt someone else's conversation with a totally different subject (no thread hijacking), you don't try to yell to all the conversation groups at once (no posting in multiple categories), you don't speak a completely different language than everyone else (use proper language, grammer, punctuation) or start talking like you're already in the middle of a conversation (provide full details/description of the problem), and if everybody at the party is talking about eg. Sports, you don't go rambling on about Beethoven's Fifth (post in the right forum).

It's not a perfect analogy, but it works well enough for basic forum etiquette. The person who posts without reading the rules, help, or even using common sense? That's the crazy cat lady who barges into the party shouting gibberish and throwing cats at everybody.

Case in point, FYI, nellum in win xp forum. Topic "HELP" at 11:34 last night. Anyone try to help him? No. I would but I have a bad case of explaining things awfully, as I'm sure you can tell by my posts. All I'm trying to get across is that this dude is new, and may never post again because he feels silly asking for help, and the nut atop the dung sundae, is that no one replied. IMO, DaveMy God, the poor guy had to wait a whole HOUR for help? Oh the pain! I'm sure that experience is going to scar him for life. Yet he still manage to sum up the courage to post again with the same problem, nay half an hour later. Come now, I asked you to post an example of a an easy question older than a couple of days that's been left unanswered (to account for time zone differences, and having enough time to answer). If you picked any random, zero-reply thread you would've found one that was older than that. Besides, I'm sure we'd get some members more than willing to combine talents to provide round the clock support - presuming you provide thee monetary incentive, since no one is going to give up their day jobs/all of their spare time to help out here without making a living out of it.

kaveman1969

July 7th, 2006, 05:53 AM

My point lufbra is that if they don't know what the problem is, how can they describe it? It goes back to someone who doesen't know much about a PC. For instance, I got my first PC in 1998, and for some reason lost my quick launch icon to show my desktop. Now at this point I was in the USAF working on the radar systems for the F-16 C Fighting Falcon. But the best I could explain my problem to a friend was," I lost my little pencil thingy, how do I get it back?" Honestly, that was the best I could do. People who don't know PC's are extremely intimidated by them. They don't realize that, software wise, you can't hurt it. At the worst level, re-format. But try telling that to someone who just got his first PC.

kaveman1969

July 7th, 2006, 06:01 AM

And my time, according to this site, reads 12:53 AM, which would lead me to believe that nellum in the win XP post, posted over a day ago, and no response. Not saying you guys have to be "on duty" all the time, but one would think someone would at least post back to the guy, oh wait.....I did

oracle128

July 7th, 2006, 06:05 AM

Case in point, FYI, nellum in win xp forum. Topic "HELP" at 11:34 last night. Anyone try to help him? No. I would but I have a bad case of explaining things awfully, as I'm sure you can tell by my posts. All I'm trying to get across is that this dude is new, and may never post again because he feels silly asking for help, and the nut atop the dung sundae, is that no one replied. IMO, DaveHow about: "There used to be a little picture of a blue pencil next to the Start button, and when I clicked on it, it made the windows go hidden. But after doing xxxxx, it's not there anymore. How to I get it back?"

A detailed description that explains the exact problem: the expected result (the button should be there), the actual result (it's no longer there), identification of the problem (any helper worth their salt would realize it's the Show the Desktop icon they're talking about), and even a bonus, something that's taken for granted around here, a mention of the last action the user took which may have caused said problem. How hard was that?

but one would think someone would at least post back to the guy, oh wait.....I didIn in making that post purely to prove a point, you've actually hindered the troubleshooting process; you've made it look like the problem is being dealt with, since it now has a reply. This is the exact reason why bumping is discouraged, and another win for "patience is a virtue".

kaveman1969

July 7th, 2006, 06:08 AM

And just so I'm sure on this, when it says "yesterday 11:34 pm" as the post time, which is when Nellum posted, that means yesterday 11:34 pm, correct?

kaveman1969

July 7th, 2006, 06:16 AM

Real hard when you don't know how to describe your problem. Look, I'm not trying to stir up stuff, I just think a little more consideration should be given to new PC owners. I didn't know d*** about them when I started, and I bet neither did most of you. I'm going to take a vacation from this board, as I don't want to alienate myself, and would like to remain friendly with all of you. I have my opinions about things and you guys have yours. Hopefully, one day ,we'll meet eye to eye. Dave

oracle128

July 7th, 2006, 06:23 AM

And just so I'm sure on this, when it says "yesterday 11:34 pm" as the post time, which is when Nellum posted, that means yesterday 11:34 pm, correct?
Your time zone is obviously different to mine, and probably 99% of other members, but I'm assuming it's about 1:20am Friday morning where you live right now. If the post says it was at "Yesterday, 11:34pm", it means Thursday night at 11:34pm. Which, as of right now, is about 2 hours ago.

z1p

July 7th, 2006, 01:42 PM

Hopefully, this thread will stay calm and I don't add too much fuel to the fire.First,And my time, according to this site, reads 12:53 AM, which would lead me to believe that nellum in the win XP post, posted over a day ago, and no response. Not saying you guys have to be "on duty" all the time, but one would think someone would at least post back to the guy, oh wait.....I didkaveman, you replied to nellum less than an hour after his post. (he posted @ 11:34pm or 26 minutes before midnight and you replied @ 12:25am or 25 minutes after midnight) So, you may not have picked the best example. A better thing to look at may be "today's unanswered Topics'"(from under quick links in the CTH menu) this shows all the threads with out a reply that have been started in the last 24 hours. Right now I'm showing 36 posts unanswered. Myself and the other folks here would like to see that @ 0 and we talk about that from time to time. But, realistically it will never be perfect, but most of the time we do pretty good. (BTW, oracle has one of the posts with no replies... :rolleyes: )

I'm all for helping new users learn how to use the forum, learn netiquette and such. But I don't see how actions such as posting the same question across multiple categories or completely off-category, hijacking another thread, writing in poor English, lacking even basic details in a request for help, etc, could be viewed as 'a mistake' and should be forgiven. These are deliberate actions that serve no purpose other than to hinder the troubleshooting process, and are only the result of a user not taking the time to read the forum rules or help services provided for them; not to be confused with actual mistakes, such as using the wrong terminology, provided irrelevant details/specs, posting in a category that's not correct but is close enough, Replying instead of Editing, etc, which I'm more than happy to forgive/ignore/correct/instruct, depending on the context.

I've tended to use the analogy of a room full of conversations (maybe like a party) a couple of times; you don't interrupt someone else's conversation with a totally different subject (no thread hijacking), you don't try to yell to all the conversation groups at once (no posting in multiple categories), you don't speak a completely different language than everyone else (use proper language, grammar, punctuation) or start talking like you're already in the middle of a conversation (provide full details/description of the problem), and if everybody at the party is talking about eg. Sports, you don't go rambling on about Beethoven's Fifth (post in the right forum).

It's not a perfect analogy, but it works well enough for basic forum etiquette. The person who posts without reading the rules, help, or even using common sense? That's the crazy cat lady who barges into the party shouting gibberish and throwing cats at everybody.
Hmmm, where to begin. First, off while English is the language of this forum I don't think it is reasonable to expect all the folks that participate here to write perfect english. I do have a bit of a problem with those post in text messaging shorthand and such 'cause it makes it harder for the many of us that aren't fluent in it and I also think it relates a bit on the attitude of the poster.

As far as thread highjacking. For someone new to the forum, I think it is completely understandable. If we use your party analogy, we can think of it as someone joining in on a group conversation as opposed to trying to start a one on one conversation. Trying to start a one on one conversation is a risk. If the other person (or in the case of a forum, persons) ignore you or worst reply with get lost stupid it can be tough. If you join a group conversation and make a comment that is ignored, it is easier to pass it off as getting lost in all the going on. I have a bigger problem with people that have many posts under their belt that post inappropriate or out of place comments in threads, they should know better.

As far as reading the help and FAQs, yes everyone should do that before posting, but it doesn't happen in the real world. That's why RTFM is usually accompanied by a smile ;) Should we not bother with the help and FAQs? No, 'cause there are those out there that do read them and need them to feel comfortable about posting. That's why they are there.

If a woman comes screaming and flailing into a party should the group collectively grab her and throw her out? God, I hope not. I would hope they would make an effort to find out what her problem is and help her. If it turns out she doesn't really have any problem and has just come in to disrupt things, then by all means toss her out on her a$$ and that is regrettably something that the mods of a forum have to do at times. But, it is not something that is taken lightly or is done because someone doesn't understand the etiquette.

oracle128

July 7th, 2006, 02:55 PM

As far as thread highjacking. For someone new to the forum, I think it is completely understandable. If we use your party analogy, we can think of it as someone joining in on a group conversation as opposed to trying to start a one on one conversation. Trying to start a one on one conversation is a risk. If the other person (or in the case of a forum, persons) ignore you or worst reply with get lost stupid it can be tough. If you join a group conversation and make a comment that is ignored, it is easier to pass it off as getting lost in all the going on.Steve: "Hey Bob, how's it going?"
Bob: "Oh, fine thanks, Steve. How about you?"
Steve: "Oh yeah, not too bad. How's the missus?"
Bob: "She's doing fine. Hey, guess who I saw the other day?"
Steve: "Who?"
Bob:"Well, you know that guy from the ..."
Conversation Hijacker: "Oh my God, laughing out loud, what the fu**, barbeque! I like Pepsi. And ponies! Okay, bye!" <--- This is not normal human behaviour!

As far as reading the help and FAQs, yes everyone should do that before posting, but it doesn't happen in the real world. That's why RTFM is usually accompanied by a smile Should we not bother with the help and FAQs? No, 'cause there are those out there that do read them and need them to feel comfortable about posting. That's why they are there.I know, nobody ever reads the FAQ/rules/instructions. But, should we really be bothering to help people who can't help themselves first? Isn't this nothing more than a sign of laziness? And even if you wanted to help these people; they're not going to follow through on the advice. If they don't bother to take a minute or two to read the FAQ/rules/whatever, they sure as hell aren't going to follow through on someone's advice to, eg download and run Memtest86. These are the kinds of people who want one of us to go round to their house and do everything for them. And these are the exact types of people I refuse, or at least hesitate or deprioritize, help to.

Miz

July 7th, 2006, 05:03 PM

Computer help forums usually get people asking for help who are somewhere between "I don't know how it works and I don't care. I just want it to work" and "I'm totally absorbed with learning all I can about computers." To me, people who ask for help are helping themselves merely by virtue of the fact they're asking for help on a computer forum such as this one.

Those who provide the help on forums such as this one are assuming the role of teacher. Basic requirements for being an effective teacher are good social skills, patience, the ability to treat everyone with courtesty and respect no matter what the first impression and the ability to present the information in a way that particular student can absorb.

There is no denying that those who help do it for personal reward. It is that reward, or motive, that separates "instructors" from "teachers."

An instructor's motive is "I will now impress you with my superior knowledge." Instructors are generally short on patience, respect, courtesy and/or the ability to adjust the way they present the information to accomodate the student's level. Instructors live for the moment the student indicates they are properly impressed, awed and, hopefully, intimidated by the instructor's vast knowledge. Instructors get their reward by proving their superiority.

A teacher's motive is "I want you to learn and understand." Teachers are generally patient, courteous, respectful and happy to adjust the way they present the information to accomodate the level of the student. Teachers live for that "light bulb moment," when the student fully understands what's being taught. Teachers get their reward when the student succeeds.

The kicker is that all students invariably pick up on who is an instructor and who is a teacher. Instructors, bless their self-absorbed little souls, will not get respect for long. :D

z1p

July 7th, 2006, 05:04 PM

:D Well, we're all free to do more or less what we like. No one is going to try to get you help those you don't want to help. As far me, off I go to help those I can help...

[stumbles while trying to bow out gracefully and hopes nobody notices... ; ) ]

black mirror

July 7th, 2006, 05:08 PM

uripyores

July 7th, 2006, 08:20 PM

And just so I'm sure on this, when it says "yesterday 11:34 pm" as the post time, which is when Nellum posted, that means yesterday 11:34 pm, correct?Have you got your time zone set for this site? [My Control Panel/Edit My Options]

oracle128

July 8th, 2006, 06:24 AM

There is no denying that those who help do it for personal reward. It is that reward, or motive, that separates "instructors" from "teachers."

An instructor's motive is "I will now impress you with my superior knowledge." Instructors are generally short on patience, respect, courtesy and/or the ability to adjust the way they present the information to accomodate the student's level. Instructors live for the moment the student indicates they are properly impressed, awed and, hopefully, intimidated by the instructor's vast knowledge. Instructors get their reward by proving their superiority.

A teacher's motive is "I want you to learn and understand." Teachers are generally patient, courteous, respectful and happy to adjust the way they present the information to accomodate the level of the student. Teachers live for that "light bulb moment," when the student fully understands what's being taught. Teachers get their reward when the student succeeds.I certainly hope you're not suggesting I'm the former ;)

Both types of helpers share a common problem; they can't help the student who always sits in the back of class, never listens to the teacher/instructor, doesn't do their homework, etc, ie. as z1p put it those that don't want to be helped.
To me, people who ask for help are helping themselves merely by virtue of the fact they're asking for help on a computer forum such as this one.To me, this is akin to simply turning up to class - which in itself, is nowhere near enough effort to help someone get their problems fixed. So why go to the effort to register and make a post (even a poor one) if they are unwilling to help themselves? These types of people, I suspect, are here simply for the fact that it's a free site. They don't want advice on how to fix the problem themselves, they just don't want to pay the $50 an hour to have someone come over to their house and do it for them. Hypothetically, if this were a pay-only site, even if it were only a few dollars (so long as it costs significatly less than paying a tech), I speculate you wouldn't get those types of people at all. You could probably get an interesting sociology paper on that theory too. :D

uripyores

July 8th, 2006, 02:35 PM

Both types of helpers share a common problem; they can't help the student who always sits in the back of class, never listens to the teacher/instructor, doesn't do their homework, etc, ie. as z1p put it those that don't want to be helped.
To me, this is akin to simply turning up to class - which in itself, is nowhere near enough effort to help someone get their problems fixed. So why go to the effort to register and make a post (even a poor one) if they are unwilling to help themselves? These types of people, I suspect, are here simply for the fact that it's a free site. They don't want advice on how to fix the problem themselves, they just don't want to pay the $50 an hour to have someone come over to their house and do it for them. Hypothetically, if this were a pay-only site, even if it were only a few dollars (so long as it costs significatly less than paying a tech), I speculate you wouldn't get those types of people at all. You could probably get an interesting sociology paper on that theory too. :DI don't think there's anything wrong with "not wanting to learn" about fixing computers. Some people don't want to learn how to fix their car, they just drive it...same thing.
And the appreciation a helper gets from the helped person is worth more than money.....IMO.

Miz

July 8th, 2006, 03:41 PM

Both types of helpers share a common problem; they can't help the student who always sits in the back of class, never listens to the teacher/instructor, doesn't do their homework, etc, ie. as z1p put it those that don't want to be helped.

When I was a teacher, I discovered there are two main reasons why an otherwise normal kid sits in the back of the class, apparently unwilling to learn. They were either so far behind, especially in reading skills, that they couldn't learn at the level being taught or they were so far ahead intellectually, they were bored into light comas.

Both types can learn if the resources are available (such as remedial reading classes for the first and accelerated programs for the second) and if the teachers have the skill to adjust the way they present the information to the level and abilitiies of the student.

I've also learned that with rare exceptions, people who ask for help here do want to fix things themselves. Those with whom some helpers lose patience are seldom trying to be dense, they just do not have the knowledge of the terminology to be able to understand the advice.

As far as coming here because "they just don't want to pay the $50 an hour to have someone come over to their house and do it for them," I fail to see why their motivations are relevant or why that motivation in particular makes them less deserving than others.

oracle128

July 8th, 2006, 03:53 PM

I don't think there's anything wrong with "not wanting to learn" about fixing computers.I think you've gotten confused with the analogies. The student that attends class but doesn't want to learn is a metaphore for the user who registers and posts on CTH, but doesn't want to go through the bother of reading instructions/rules, listening to advice, following through on suggestions, etc.
And the appreciation a helper gets from the helped person is worth more than moneyI'm in no way saying this should be a pay site; I'm just suggesting that, hypothetically, if it were, you wouldn't get the types users that are described above. Put another way, it's a suggestion that the only reason users who don't want to help themselves go through the bother of registering and posting is fincancial motivation (ie. the ill-fated comparison of "join CTH for free, get problems fixed" vs "pay $50/hour, get problems fixed"). They don't understand that the free method (CTH) actually involves them having to do some research of their own, and be willing to assist in the identification and solving of the problem.

And the appreciation a helper gets from the helped person is worth more than moneyI believe the above should answer that too.

uripyores

July 8th, 2006, 04:16 PM

I think you've gotten confused with the analogies. The student that attends class but doesn't want to learn is a metaphore for the user who registers and posts on CTH, but doesn't want to go through the bother of reading instructions/rules, listening to advice, following through on suggestions, etc.
No I'm in no way confused.... the person who registers and posts here of their own free will cannot be compared with a kid who HAS to go to school whether he likes it or not. Maybe if you compared it with someone who signs up for a night school course at college it would be nearer. All people are in different situations , so I reckon we should be extremely careful about jumping to conclusions as to peoples motives in asking for help. Some couldn't actually afford to get a technician in to fix things for them. :)

black mirror

July 8th, 2006, 04:43 PM

No I'm in no way confused.... the person who registers and posts here of their own free will cannot be compared with a kid who HAS to go to school whether he likes it or not. Maybe if you compared it with someone who signs up for a night school course at college it would be nearer. All people are in different situations , so I reckon we should be extremely careful about jumping to conclusions as to peoples motives in asking for help. Some couldn't actually afford to get a technician in to fix things for them. :)

I cant afford it:laugh:

Snurfen

July 8th, 2006, 06:04 PM

As far as coming here because "they just don't want to pay the $50 an hour to have someone come over to their house and do it for them," I fail to see why their motivations are relevant or why that motivation in particular makes them less deserving than others.
I agree strongly with that Miz, in fact, credit should be given to such a person for having the gumption of coming to a site like CTH to try and help themselves, rather than just shell out hard earned cash.

PurestLight

July 8th, 2006, 06:35 PM

Seems to me that Oracle is saying that if you come to site like this then you are a cheapskate or poor, and if you want free help then you flipping well have to earn it.

Me, I first came here because I had a particular problem I wanted sorted out quickly. Many moons ago, I had PC probs and took my PC in for a 'Health Check' at PC World. I was without it for days and they did absolutely nothing as far as I could tell. I felt Id been totally ripped off. There had to be a better way than that, and there was - here. Id pay more than the silly $5 a year if I had to, so my motives (if I need any) are knowledgeable people,(how do you know who to trust in a shop?) speed, efficiency and all the other nice things about this place. I guess Im luckier than some anyway because my other half will sort hardware stuff out, put me a new hard drive or memory in etc so I thankfully, I have no need for a shop.

(And) everything that Miz said.

:happy:

Rainbow32

July 8th, 2006, 06:42 PM

But then again isn't one of the benefits of the internet is to get as much free stuff as you can find?:D

black mirror

July 8th, 2006, 09:40 PM

When i have a problem i ask Jeeves first..... this usually redirects me to other help forums where people have posted similar problems but they are never the same as mine.. so i post here and i know the answers i will get will be first class......i need my money for chocolate:laugh:

uripyores

July 9th, 2006, 12:55 AM

I cant afford it:laugh:
Haha, we all know you're rollin' in it BM. :laugh:

oracle128

July 9th, 2006, 03:39 AM

Seems to me that Oracle is saying that if you come to site like this then you are a cheapskate or poor, and if you want free help then you flipping well have to earn it.I'm not saying that persona applies to everybody. I'm saying that if a person comes here asking for help, but won't bother to help us help them (eg. providing obvious details, writing properly, reading rules), then the financial advantage of a forum like CTH is the most likely reason they even went through the trouble of signing up and posting in the first place. It's a counter-argument to the suggestion that if they did go through that bother, it's already an indication that they are willing to help themselves. It probably won't apply to every user who signs up and posts but won't help themselves (though it would account for a large percentage of that population), and it definitely doesn't apply at all to those who are willing to do a little research before posting; eg. by reading up on the forum rules, using common sense to post any relevant details possible, doing so in as proper English as they know, etc. Note that I'm not saying, for example, people have to know a whole lot about computers/terminology before posting, because it's just as easy to say "I'd post information about my computer hardware but I don't know how to find that out"; whereby we suggestion something like Everest or SIW. All I'm saying is, it doesn't take much effort to construct a proper post, and this is the way you get prompt, proper help from one of us helpers. Hijacking another thread with crap like "LOLZ I wanna find a crack for this program I have gimme a site LOLZ" does not, to me, sound like a person who's willing to help themselves before leaving us to help.

Snurfen

July 9th, 2006, 11:11 AM

....... Hijacking another thread with crap like "LOLZ I wanna find a crack for this program I have gimme a site LOLZ" does not, to me, sound like a person who's willing to help themselves before leaving us to help.

Agreed, but what most of us thought here was that you were having a go at some poor sod, who in a blind panic of "OMG the things frozen/blown up/switched off" when they need to get a (to them) vitally important essay/letter/declaration printed off, posts a short first post.

I think most of us are savvy enough to differentiate betwen the two and act accordingly. Although sadly on occasion, some aren't and appear to be a bit abrupt or rude where they should be more paternal and give the new poster a metaphorical leg-up.

AnnMarie

July 9th, 2006, 11:32 AM

All I'm saying is, it doesn't take much effort to construct a proper post, and this is the way you get prompt, proper help from one of us helpers. Hijacking another thread with crap like "LOLZ I wanna find a crack for this program I have gimme a site LOLZ" does not, to me, sound like a person who's willing to help themselves before leaving us to help.

How many threads have you seen hijacked with a request like that Oracle? I have been posting here for a few years and I can count them on one hand.

I find your arguments a bit disturbing actually. Are you are really saying that the help that I and others offer is of no value. We are simply mugs sucked in by lazy, mean and illiterate people?

*Edited by AnnMarie (to clarify the last paragraph)*

oracle128

July 9th, 2006, 03:17 PM

How many threads have you seen hijacked with a request like that Oracle? I have been posting here for a few years and I can count them on one hand.Well, it was an extreme example. But even so, yes, I've seen a few posts with requests very much like that, and of course many more that aren't quite as bad. But luckily they get moved or deleted before any real damage occurs.

I find your arguments a bit disturbing actually. Are you are really saying that the help that I and others offer is of no value. We are simply mugs sucked in by lazy, mean and illiterate people?Umm...no... The advice given by people like you and me is practical (yours even more so, because you immediately see the effects of your aid with the multiple HJT followups). But, for the small percentage of people who really are too lazy to help themselves, and only see places like CTH as a free alternative to paying a tech to help them, rather than a completely different type of help that involves some work on their part; then yes, our talents are mostly wasted in that situation (not taking into account the possibility of our advice not being followed by the poster, but then being followed by someone else with the same problem later).

This is why I hesitate to give help to somebody who blatantly appears they want one of us to do everything for them, rather than advise/instruct(/teach) them how to troubleshoot, and eventually solve their problem. Some good examples of this can be found in the Programming forum; a place that, more often than not, gets requests that amount to nothing more than "I've been given this homework assignment, can somebody do it for me?".

z1p

July 11th, 2006, 04:27 PM

This is why I hesitate to give help to somebody who blatantly appears they want one of us to do everything for them, rather than advise/instruct(/teach) them how to troubleshoot, and eventually solve their problem. Some good examples of this can be found in the Programming forum; a place that, more often than not, gets requests that amount to nothing more than "I've been given this homework assignment, can somebody do it for me?".Once again oracle you've resorted to using aberrations to make your point. The programming forum is somewhat unique in that 'we' can actually do everything for the person posting, unlike be unable to physically fix a computer problem remotely. But even in the programming forum the instances where someone is looking to get all the code written for them is small.

I agree there are some cases where the person posting is either unable or unwilling to do the steps needed to solve their problem. It is the latter that I have an issue with and I generally will reach a point that I will stop offering my help unless I see a change. For those that do not have the knowledge to do what they are trying do, I try to help and guide them along the way and hopefully I can help them.

Saying that a person, that doesn't post enough information in their initial post, is lazy and doesn't want to work to solve their problem is ridiculous. I propose that someone who starts to help another, but bails when it takes more than a short answer to solve the problem, is the lazy one.

oracle128

July 12th, 2006, 04:54 AM

I propose that someone who starts to help another, but bails when it takes more than a short answer to solve the problem, is the lazy one.I agree with you somewhat on that. At the very least, we can say that "well, at least they're trying", but as we know, simply giving one-line-advice, taking off and not coming back to expand or clarify, is almost as bad as knowing the answer, but not bothering to help at all. At its best though, it may simply be that the helper doesn't know the complete answer. The trouble with the helper scenario is, it's hard to tell. Look at black mirror for an example; she often gives off the simple solution when trying to answer posts. Not that there's anything wrong with that; it's often the simple answer that helps, leads to a detailed solution, or at the very least eliminates the simply stuff. And if she can't help any further, she'll and seek assistance from one of the other members; that, I admire.
Saying that a person, that doesn't post enough information in their initial post, is lazy and doesn't want to work to solve their problem is ridiculous.I acknowledge that you have that opinion, but; what is your explanation to why such posts exist? Unwillingness is not an answer, because it's not likely we're going to be able to identify someone by their hardware. Ignorance/inability is not an excuse either, because even if you don't know your specs; there's the manual that came with the PC (if it's a brand name) or other documentation, there's programs like Belarc Advisor, Everest or SIW to identify hardware, and if you don't know of those, there's Google - using simple keywords should lead you to one of those tools, or at least details of the hardware associated with any model numbers you do have. I mean come on, even people who've never even used a computer have heard of Google. A default Windows installation gives you the MSN homepage in IE (which has a search field), and Firefox defaults to Google, so it's not like people have to stress to find a search engine.

I'm not even saying you need to post your PC hardware if one of the three methods above doesn't suit; post your computer's model (brand name PCs), and we'll find out for you - this should be noted somewhere on the PC, on the manuals/documentation, on the receipt... Even without hardware specs or model numbers, you still shouldn't have any problems making a detailed post; you don't need to be computer genius to be able to describe a problem in detail. And then there's the simple details; what operating system you're using (if you don't know, it's displayed when you boot up), what application you're using, what you're trying to do when the problem occurs, etc. As far as I can tell, there's just no excuse for a post that lacks that kind of simple detail, but naturally I'm open to your explanations.

Miz

July 12th, 2006, 12:30 PM

Oracle's complaints about what people do and do not do when they post to a board such as this seems to rely on the assumption they know a lot more than they know and if they don't know it, they're lazy.

I got a call yesterday from a very nice lady with an XP system that booted to blank wallpaper. She'd used Ctrl/Alt/Del and got the Task Manager but didn't have a clue what to do with it. She couldn't get her computer to shut down. That's all the information she could give me (she'd didn't know the name of Task Manager so she said, "that list of things running")

So I went over there, held the power button down longer than she had so it shut down, rebooted and all her stuff was back. So, 2 minutes after I arrived at her front door, the computer was fixed.

The machine was slower than it should have been though, so I asked if she wanted me to clean it up while I was there. She was happy to pay me to do that.

While I worked, she asked me a bunch of questions (which I don't mind, I prefer having the company) She knew, and knows, none of the correct terms but I didn't have any trouble understanding what she was asking. For example, she asked me how to "get something from a web page into something else so I can print it" (copy and paste or "print selection") and what her son was talking about when he said something about "fragmenting the disk." She hadn't done any research online and she has not a clue what her computer's specs are other than the brand and the version of Windows.

However, she is a Nurse Practitioner. I expect if I went to her for her "tech support," I wouldn't know any of her terms either. Not only did I take two years of Latin but I also use my body every day...yet I don't know the correct medical terms to tell a health care professional what the problem is.

If I'm understanding oracle correctly, I should be told to go home and learn the terms and do some research on my own before I could expect any help from the medical profession. :D

z1p

July 12th, 2006, 12:49 PM

Well put Miz.

oracle128

July 13th, 2006, 01:28 PM

Oracle's complaints about what people do and do not do when they post to a board such as this seems to rely on the assumption they know a lot more than they know and if they don't know it, they're lazy.Uhh, no, I've already explained at least twice that is not what I am saying. Perhaps I should itemize it, as some people clearly are not getting the point of my posts and are ridiculously misinterpreting what I am saying, to the point where it seems like the only rebuttal people have against my arguments is to just make up arguments I'm not making, and rebut them.

What I AM saying:
-It doesn't take a lot of effort to research (using a search engine, at least) any necessary information; computer terms, application details, hardware specs, etc. This is optional.
-It doesn't take any special effort to talk like a normal human being.
-It doesn't take any special effort to describe a problem in as much details as possible (as was demonstrated in my example back in post #49).

What I am NOT saying:
-Users should know all their PC's specs.
-Users should know all the relevant computer terms.

That is now officially the third time I have specified that I don't expect users to know technical details that are beyond their comprehension. Any further posts made suggesting I'm expecting users to know these things will be ignored.

***Analogy Warning***
The following is an analogy focusing on cars. I am not suggesting this should be a car forum, or that we should be taking computers to mechanics now. Just thought I'd add that, because it's become clear to me some readers are having a hard time distinguishing literal arguments from an analogous comparison.
"Joe CarDriver" takes his car to the local mechanic/auto repair shop. Joe then says to the mechanic "my car won't work, fix it!". What do you suppose the mechanic's response will be? Perhaps one of the following:
1) "Ok, can you give me details of what exactly the problem is? Will the car try to start? Will the engine run? Does the brake work? The accellerator? Are you able to steer? Do the lights work?" etc
2) "Ok, I'll fix it up!". The mechanic then proceeds to run every possible diagnostic, then go ahead and replace the oil, gear fluid, windscreen wiper fluid, wiper blades, tires, battery, wires, muffler, etc. Then hands the customer a bill for thousands of dollars.

The latter isn't a good choice for us CTH helpers, because we don't charge, and we'll just be wasting our time and theirs (the helpee). The former works; eventually. Again though, it's a waste of both our time and theirs, because it means another round of conversational exchanges. How much simpler would it be if users just gave us the required (non-technical) detail in the first place?

Might I also add, how ironic that you post in this thread, z1p, noting the link in your signature. By disagreeing with me, you're in fact suggesting that the instructions provided in that post are not important at all. Those are, after all, the precise details I'm suggesting each post should include (albeit more oriented toward network troubleshooting, naturally).

Miz

July 13th, 2006, 03:58 PM

To continue with the car analogy.

Good mechanics will ask questions until he/she understands the problem.

Poor mechanics will just replace everything and send a bill.

Those of us who don't know the details of how our vehicles work and are not interested in learning usually don't know what information is relevant. We describe the symptoms and expect the mechanic to ask the questions that will elicit the information he/she needs to diagnose and fix the problem.

This translates into the world of computer tech support as:

Good techs will ask questions until he/she understands the problem.

Poor techs will tell the poster to reformat and reinstall.

Those who don't know the details of how computers work and are not interested in learning usually don't know what information is relevant. They describe the symptoms and expect us to ask the questions that will elicit the relevant information.

Yes, there are a few...very few in my experience...who start a zillion threads on the same problem, who never seem to follow directions, cannot seem to provide the information requested yet don't explain why not, demand immediate, constant and personal help and who really should take their computer to a shop.

Think of it this way...learning how to deal effectively with people you find annoying is great training for future employment. It's a fact of life that no matter what you choose to do to support yourself, some annoying people will be there. Sometimes they're in charge of hiring, firing and signing paychecks. Learn to deal with them effectively and you'll be ahead of the game. :D

black mirror

July 13th, 2006, 05:59 PM

You forgot about the rumour that members of CTH are PSYCHIC:rotflmao:
we see and hear all........l

z1p

July 13th, 2006, 06:24 PM

I really don't need to reply here as Miz is continuing to handle this so well, but I will anyway.

What I AM saying:

-It doesn't take a lot of effort to research (using a search engine, at least) any necessary information; computer terms, application details, hardware specs, etc. This is optional.
-It doesn't take any special effort to talk like a normal human being.
-It doesn't take any special effort to describe a problem in as much details as possible (as was demonstrated in my example back in post #49).
My take on these items...
You are correct, going to google and running a search is not difficult. However, knowing what to search for can be difficult. I agree with you some research on the poster's part is nice, but optional. I think some people post here instead of doing a search and following the advice they might find through the search because they feel they are more likely to get the correct info for their problem here. At least I'd like to think that is the case
I agree with you on this item, though I think it could have beem expressed a bit nicer.
This one is a tough one because its very vague. Some people can't provide much for information because they don't know what is relevent to the problem. So, in some cases saying "XYZ doesn't work" is providing as much info as possible. It is the "helper's" role to help determine what is the root of the problem and to suggest a fix.

***Analogy Warning***
The following is an analogy focusing on cars. I am not suggesting this should be a car forum, or that we should be taking computers to mechanics now. Just thought I'd add that, because it's become clear to me some readers are having a hard time distinguishing literal arguments from an analogous comparison.
"Joe CarDriver" takes his car to the local mechanic/auto repair shop. Joe then says to the mechanic "my car won't work, fix it!". What do you suppose the mechanic's response will be? Perhaps one of the following:
1) "Ok, can you give me details of what exactly the problem is? Will the car try to start? Will the engine run? Does the brake work? The accellerator? Are you able to steer? Do the lights work?" etc
2) "Ok, I'll fix it up!". The mechanic then proceeds to run every possible diagnostic, then go ahead and replace the oil, gear fluid, windscreen wiper fluid, wiper blades, tires, battery, wires, muffler, etc. Then hands the customer a bill for thousands of dollars.

The latter isn't a good choice for us CTH helpers, because we don't charge, and we'll just be wasting our time and theirs (the helpee). The former works; eventually. Again though, it's a waste of both our time and theirs, because it means another round of conversational exchanges. How much simpler would it be if users just gave us the required (non-technical) detail in the first place?

Might I also add, how ironic that you post in this thread, z1p, noting the link in your signature. By disagreeing with me, you're in fact suggesting that the instructions provided in that post are not important at all. Those are, after all, the precise details I'm suggesting each post should include (albeit more oriented toward network troubleshooting, naturally).

I couldn't disagree with you more. #1 is not a waste of time unless the person refuses to respond to the questions. I believe that many times going through the questions and answer session can be helpful to the person beyond just solving their immediate problem as it can be a means for them to learn.

I don't see my disagreeing with you ironic in the least and that you are the one that is putting words in other's mouth. I have never in this thread of anywhere else for that matter said that getting the details is not important. The reason that the link is in my sig is that the details are important, but I don't expect everyone to know what info they should post with their problem.

My hope is that some people see the link (or the sticky it refers to) and include the recommended details in their initial post. If someone doesn't include that information in their initial post, I don't ignore them or tell them to do twenty things (which is what you seem to be advocating). What I do is either refer them to the sticky and ask them to post that info or ask them for other info based on what they have said. Essentially, I do #1 from your list at the top, which sometimes can take a while but it is what I think needs to be done at times to give someone proper help.

z1p

July 13th, 2006, 06:25 PM

You forgot about the rumour that members of CTH are PSYCHIC:rotflmao:
we see and hear all........lDon't start spreading false rumors bm.

BTW - you really should be wearing something else when you post here or some people may start talking:D

black mirror

July 13th, 2006, 06:28 PM

BTW - you really should be wearing something else when you post here or some people may start talking:D

Let them:D

Rainbow32

July 13th, 2006, 09:04 PM

Oracle128
that we should be taking computers to mechanics now.
Don't really want to be a part of this but this statement did hit me funny. All the latest models of cars have a dozen or so onboard computers that a mechanic can access to diagnose a car problem. ;)

Snurfen

July 13th, 2006, 09:30 PM

Ora, give us yer shovel mate, it really is time to stop digging.

oracle128

July 14th, 2006, 05:10 AM

I have never in this thread of anywhere else for that matter said that getting the details is not important. The reason that the link is in my sig is that the details are important, but I don't expect everyone to know what info they should post with their problem.Oh, no, we're all in agreement that the details are important. The disagreement comes when I suggest it's pure laziness that these details aren't provided in the first place out of common sense, as opposed to waiting a 24-48 hours for one of us to ask the obvious questions. For some strange reason, some of you are suggesting that it's not laziness that these details aren't provided. Yet, those that take that stance have all failed to even suggest what is the reason they aren't provided. Or, to take it back to the car analogy:
Good mechanics will ask questions until he/she understands the problem.

Poor mechanics will just replace everything and send a bill.Normal humans will explain their problem in detail in the first place, without waiting for the mechanic to ask those questions.
???? ???? will give a vague indication that they may or may not be having a problem, waiting for someone else to give them attention, ask them what the problem is, and get details.

Clearly, both types of people exist. What I'm suggesting is, "?????" should be "lazy people, or those who lack any common sense". What you're suggesting is...well, you're not actually suggesting anything. All you're doing is acknowledging those types of people exist, and saying my theory is wrong, without providing an explanation of your own.

uripyores

July 14th, 2006, 01:49 PM

Although there may be a few lazy people who ask for help, who can tell who are lazy and who are just people who don't know the way you would like them to ask? You seem to be lumping all together the people YOU consider aren't asking questions properly. Some of them are youngsters [for example] without any experience of these type of forums or even much experience with computers.
You sound like you are taking things too seriously......

All people are different.

Miz

July 14th, 2006, 01:54 PM

Clearly, both types of people exist. What I'm suggesting is, "?????" should be "lazy people, or those who lack any common sense". What you're suggesting is...well, you're not actually suggesting anything. All you're doing is acknowledging those types of people exist, and saying my theory is wrong, without providing an explanation of your own.

Apparently you missed my explanation: "Those who don't know the details of how computers work and are not interested in learning usually don't know what information is relevant. They describe the symptoms and expect us to ask the questions that will elicit the relevant information."

Back to the car analogy: I took my almost-new pickup in (about 2,000 miles on it) and told them "It makes a clunking sound when the steering wheel is turned to the left." That's all I could tell them.

The first question asked was, "Have you had the tires balanced or the wheels aligned since you got it?" It did not occur to me to add that information because I had no knowledge of that particular make and model's little problem in that area.

That, you see, is my explanation...many people don't have any idea what information is relevant.

oracle128

July 15th, 2006, 07:00 PM

I don't know about you, but I'd rather read and respond to a post that's over-detailed, than one that's so simplified to the point there'd be no chance at all we'd ever be able to resolve it. As for your pickup truck statement "It makes a clunking sound when the steering wheel is turned to the left."; I wish we'd get that kind of detail in all the posts here, as I'd associate that with something like "I get a blue screen error 0x00000001 whenever I try to run x program". Sure it doesn't include all the relevant info ("have you added new hardware/software lately?"), but at least it's a start.

Of course, the other difference is, you had to physically take your car there, so they knew what the model of car it was. Would you go to your mechanic, without your car, and ask him to fix your clunking problem, without any indication as to what kind of car you have?

The kind of posts I'm talking about would be similar to "my car won't work plz help LOL!" in the car scenario. What explanation is there for that, other than what I've already pointed out?

Miz

July 16th, 2006, 01:18 AM

Of course, the other difference is, you had to physically take your car there, so they knew what the model of car it was. Would you go to your mechanic, without your car, and ask him to fix your clunking problem, without any indication as to what kind of car you have?

Well, yes, actually I did just that. Told him about the noise, asked if it would do any good to bring it to him.

He told me where to look for a couple of possible problems. I did, didn't find what he told me to look for, and that's when I took it to him and he asked me about the wheel alignment and tire balancing.

oracle128

July 16th, 2006, 07:46 AM

Miz

July 16th, 2006, 01:59 PM

Oh, I see. So you're just as guilty as the people I'm talking about. I know absolutely nothing about cars either, but I would have at least had the common sense to first mention what kind of car I have, what the noise sounded like, where it was coming from... You know, basic stuff that doesn't require any technical knowledge or having to know what the relevant details, but is incredibly useful to those diagnosing the problem. Maybe if you'd done something similar, you would've saved yourself having to take the car in to that particular mechanic to get it diagnosed (and perhaps shopped around for a better wheel/tire servicing)?

You're making judgments without knowing the whole story...which is similar to making judgments about people who post here. There's no way you can know the whole story behind why they post what they do...or why I talked to the mechanic first.

So here's the rest of the story behind why I talked to the mechanic first: It's a small town. Everybody knows everybody. I know the mechanic. He knows our various trucks quite well. He knows how much I know about auto mechanics. He knew that I knew enough to follow his directions. I also know when it's beyond my auto mechanic knowledge and skills so I took it in.

Making judgments is one thing but condemning based on what cannot be anything other than partial information is dangerous. Any time someone posts asking for help here, what we know about them and their computer skills has got to be, at best, only partial information. So, the post should be taken at face value without condemning the poster for failing to include relevant information or for including a lot of irrelevant information.

oracle128

July 16th, 2006, 03:17 PM

black mirror

July 16th, 2006, 03:18 PM

Miz, I'm not talking about the computer skills of posters. I'm talking about common sense, logic, and command of the English language (yes I can tell the difference between someone who doesn't know it because it's a second language, and one who abuses it just for the sake of it).

Now Oracle128 nowhere in the forum rules and regulations does it even mention common sense:D ... or they would never had let me join....:dizzy:
as for logic i cant even do one of those Rubik cubes,, although i can command English...2 O levels to my name.... does the i go before the e or is it the other way around????;)

Snurfen

July 16th, 2006, 11:49 PM

Hey you guys, like my puter is bust. Can you fix it or something?

Snurfen

July 16th, 2006, 11:50 PM

BUMP! Like I haven't got ALL DAY, peeps.

Rainbow32

July 16th, 2006, 11:55 PM

Hi Sunfern and welcome to CTH,
Ummmmmm. Post a HJT log in Cyber Safety and if your computer is still busted come back here and somebody will ummmmmm... do something.

Snurfen

July 16th, 2006, 11:58 PM

LOL! Cheeky monkey.
I was going to type them both in l33t speak, but the Guild Assasins would've boobytrapped my desk in work (again).

Rainbow32

July 17th, 2006, 01:59 AM

I was going to type them both in l33t speak
There's even a google for leet.
http://www.google.com/intl/xx-hacker/

oracle128

July 17th, 2006, 06:36 AM

Yeah but, there's one for Klingon (http://www.google.com/intl/xx-klingon/) too.

And Snurfen, I suggest you see Miz about your broken computer she knows just how to fix it :D

Miz

July 17th, 2006, 01:17 PM

And Snurfen, I suggest you see Miz about your broken computer she knows just how to fix it :D

Here's a quote from one of your own posts (http://www.cybertechhelp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=661584&postcount=38), oracle, "...don't go making accusations, flamebaiting, or making crude and obvious "hidden" agendas/sarcasm..."

oracle128

July 17th, 2006, 03:06 PM

Come now, that wasn't crude at all.

black mirror

July 17th, 2006, 05:50 PM

Maybe a little tiny bit on the sarcastic side oracle128:D.. but thats a womans view

Miz

July 17th, 2006, 05:50 PM

Come now, that wasn't crude at all.

How about "flamebaiting" or "sarcasm"?

black mirror

July 17th, 2006, 06:01 PM

How about "flamebaiting" or "sarcasm"?

Duplicate posts at the same time Miz .. :D
Personally
I dont like sarcasm:sad:
I dont like making people feel small and inferior:sad:
I dont like to be misunderstood:sad:
I dont like being made to feel inferior..:sad:
and i will only make a joke with members who i know will understand what i mean.....

Cher
If I Could Turn Back Time

I don't know why I did the things I did
I don't know why I said the things I said
Pride's like a knife, it can cut deep inside
Words are like weapons, they wound sometimes
I didn't really mean to hurt you
I didn't wanna see you go
I know I made you cry:sad:

z1p

July 17th, 2006, 06:17 PM

Come now, that wasn't crude at all.One might say it was a crude attempt at flamebaiting. :D

black mirror

July 17th, 2006, 08:59 PM

One might say it was a crude attempt at flamebaiting. :D

In terms i can understand.what is flame baiting..???? i guess it has nothing to do with fishing.. i mean the water would put out the flame..wouldnt it ??:D

Pi rules

July 17th, 2006, 09:25 PM

Read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamebait).

black mirror

July 17th, 2006, 09:30 PM

Thank you understood....thats a good little site wilkipedia

Rainbow32

July 17th, 2006, 09:34 PM

Or if you speak Klingon use this (http://www.google.com/intl/xx-klingon/):happy:

black mirror

July 17th, 2006, 09:38 PM

Or if you speak Klingon use this (http://www.google.com/intl/xx-klingon/):happy:

No never had the need:D

i82much

July 18th, 2006, 12:51 AM

I love this site and value the info in it. I know that this site is free, and when I have a problem I do a search for the answer first, and the answer is usually there and I solve the problem much faster than having to wait on a reply.
I would rather the "gurus" spend their time working on someones new problem that on mine that has allready been dealt with

oracle128

July 18th, 2006, 09:33 AM

How about "flamebaiting" or "sarcasm"?There was no flamebaiting, sarcasm, or hidden agenda. It was an obvious reference to your implicitly alleged ability to solve a problem based on no given variables.

Miz

July 18th, 2006, 01:30 PM

Apparently, judging from the responses, it wasn't obvious at all since I have not claimed to be able to solve a computer problem without any information.

You maintain that users who don't include all relevant information in their request for help are lazy. I have maintained that such information may not be included because they don't know what information is relevant to the problem. I have also said that when more information is needed, it's simple enough to ask the poster for it.

oracle128

July 18th, 2006, 01:46 PM

It also wastes time. There's also no problem with providing extra detail. Like I said, I'd rather sift through lines of irrelevant info to get the required data, than to have to ask questions like "what program are you using?", "what operating system are you using?", or "have you added any new hardware or software recently?", which should have been provided out of common sense, rather than the expectation of knowing what info is relevent.

PurestLight

July 18th, 2006, 02:28 PM

I have a friend who, if you asked her anything about hardware or software would look at me like I was from Mars. She doesnt comprehend the difference between a scanner and a printer, all she knows is that they both 'do' photographs somehow. She has absolutely NO idea whatsoever about PC terminology, functions and components.

Alot of people Ive talked to, her included, think that the monitor is the PC because that is where they see the 'action' take place. However, she is perfectly able to book flights over the internet, for instance. If she had a problem with it malfunctioning, she truly would have no idea how to vocalise it. She would have to get her 13 year old to explain.

I think it is easy to forget what it was like to gaze upon a chunk of malfunctioning technology for the first time, and be totally at a loss as to what to do. Not everybody is technologically inclined and not everybody has the knack or vocabulary to enunciate their problem.

oracle128

July 18th, 2006, 02:52 PM

That point has already be raised and rebutted several times, Julie.

uripyores

July 18th, 2006, 04:34 PM

That point has already be raised and rebutted several times, Julie. You seem to be the only one who thinks so.

z1p

July 18th, 2006, 06:40 PM

You seem to be the only one who thinks so.
:thumbsup:

black mirror

July 18th, 2006, 06:57 PM

I think it is easy to forget what it was like to gaze upon a chunk of malfunctioning technology for the first time, and be totally at a loss as to what to do. Not everybody is technologically inclined and not everybody has the knack or vocabulary to enunciate their problem.

I still gaze at mine from time to time and think WHY ME
What did i ever do to deserve such a misbehaving self centred pile of junk..... whose only pleasure in life is to make me suffer... just lately on a daily basis...And my dreams.. keeping them to myself....Oh the torture i could inflict on it... but dont..:D

I come to CTH and plead ignorance after trying. googling.everything i can....

By the way... how do you post a link again.. i think i have forgotten:rotflmao:??

Yassix

July 18th, 2006, 07:23 PM

this site is awesome man no discussion

Snurfen

July 18th, 2006, 11:43 PM

this site is awesome man no discussion
Nice sentiment. Well done for that post :thumbsup:

oracle128

July 19th, 2006, 09:59 AM

That point has already be raised and rebutted several times, Julie.You seem to be the only one who thinks so.I know, quite disturbing, isn't it? Well, me and a little thing called the facts.

...it's missing vital information that should have been provided out of common sense; the poster is ...
Well, there is a video tutorial on how to register, another one on how to post a question, and one more on how to post a reply. I've never watched any of them, but I'm sure they're top quality and cover everything in detail, so even someone who's never seen a computer before could do it. They're over in the aptly-named Site Help section (a link to which can be found on every page of the forum). I really don't know how much easier it can get than that; I mean, the help is right there, in an obvious section. Perhaps it's the user's fault for a lack of common sense, or simply being lazy and not willing to help themselves?
The location of CTH's help link is quite ingenious, actually. Where do you find help within a program? The top menu, on the far right. It's no coincidence this is exacly where the CTH link is, too (well, more or less, it's close enough).
the site designer does everything in their power to help out the user - providing video tutorials and good user interface design considerations (apart from forcing the tutorial content at them).
But I don't see how actions such as posting the same question across multiple categories or completely off-category, hijacking another thread, writing in poor English, lacking even basic details in a request for help, etc, could be viewed as 'a mistake' and should be forgiven. These are deliberate actions that serve no purpose other than to hinder the troubleshooting process, and are only the result of a user not taking the time to read the forum rules or help services provided for them; not to be confused with actual mistakes, such as using the wrong terminology, provided irrelevant details/specs, posting in a category that's not correct but is close enough, Replying instead of Editing, etc, which I'm more than happy to forgive/ignore/correct/instruct, depending on the context.
How about: "There used to be a little picture of a blue pencil next to the Start button, and when I clicked on it, it made the windows go hidden. But after doing xxxxx, it's not there anymore. How to I get it back?"

A detailed description that explains the exact problem: the expected result (the button should be there), the actual result (it's no longer there), identification of the problem (any helper worth their salt would realize it's the Show the Desktop icon they're talking about), and even a bonus, something that's taken for granted around here, a mention of the last action the user took which may have caused said problem. How hard was that?
I'm saying that if a person comes here asking for help, but won't bother to help us help them (eg. providing obvious details, writing properly, reading rules), then the financial advantage of a forum like CTH is the most likely reason they even went through the trouble of signing up and posting in the first place. It's a counter-argument to the suggestion that if they did go through that bother, it's already an indication that they are willing to help themselves.
those who are willing to do a little research before posting; eg. by reading up on the forum rules, using common sense to post any relevant details possible, doing so in as proper English as they know, etc. Note that I'm not saying, for example, people have to know a whole lot about computers/terminology before posting, because it's just as easy to say "I'd post information about my computer hardware but I don't know how to find that out"; whereby we suggestion something like Everest or SIW. All I'm saying is, it doesn't take much effort to construct a proper post, and this is the way you get prompt, proper help from one of us helpers. Hijacking another thread with crap like "LOLZ I wanna find a crack for this program I have gimme a site LOLZ" does not, to me, sound like a person who's willing to help themselves before leaving us to help.
I acknowledge that you have that opinion, but; what is your explanation to why such posts exist? Unwillingness is not an answer, because it's not likely we're going to be able to identify someone by their hardware. Ignorance/inability is not an excuse either, because even if you don't know your specs; there's the manual that came with the PC (if it's a brand name) or other documentation, there's programs like Belarc Advisor, Everest or SIW to identify hardware, and if you don't know of those, there's Google - using simple keywords should lead you to one of those tools, or at least details of the hardware associated with any model numbers you do have. I mean come on, even people who've never even used a computer have heard of Google. A default Windows installation gives you the MSN homepage in IE (which has a search field), and Firefox defaults to Google, so it's not like people have to stress to find a search engine.

I'm not even saying you need to post your PC hardware if one of the three methods above doesn't suit; post your computer's model (brand name PCs), and we'll find out for you - this should be noted somewhere on the PC, on the manuals/documentation, on the receipt... Even without hardware specs or model numbers, you still shouldn't have any problems making a detailed post; you don't need to be computer genius to be able to describe a problem in detail. And then there's the simple details; what operating system you're using (if you don't know, it's displayed when you boot up), what application you're using, what you're trying to do when the problem occurs, etc. As far as I can tell, there's just no excuse for a post that lacks that kind of simple detail, but naturally I'm open to your explanations.
What I AM saying:
-It doesn't take a lot of effort to research (using a search engine, at least) any necessary information; computer terms, application details, hardware specs, etc. This is optional.
-It doesn't take any special effort to talk like a normal human being.
-It doesn't take any special effort to describe a problem in as much details as possible (as was demonstrated in my example back in post #49).

What I am NOT saying:
-Users should know all their PC's specs.
-Users should know all the relevant computer terms.
we're all in agreement that the details are important. The disagreement comes when I suggest it's pure laziness that these details aren't provided in the first place out of common sense, as opposed to waiting a 24-48 hours for one of us to ask the obvious questions. For some strange reason, some of you are suggesting that it's not laziness that these details aren't provided. Yet, those that take that stance have all failed to even suggest what is the reason they aren't provided.
Normal humans will explain their problem in detail in the first place, without waiting for the [helper] to ask those questions.
???? ???? will give a vague indication that they may or may not be having a problem, waiting for someone else to give them attention, ask them what the problem is, and get details.

Clearly, both types of people exist. What I'm suggesting is, "?????" should be "lazy people, or those who lack any common sense". What you're suggesting is...well, you're not actually suggesting anything. All you're doing is acknowledging those types of people exist, and saying my theory is wrong, without providing an explanation of your own.
I'd rather read and respond to a post that's over-detailed, than one that's so simplified to the point there'd be no chance at all we'd ever be able to resolve it. As for your pickup truck statement "It makes a clunking sound when the steering wheel is turned to the left."; I wish we'd get that kind of detail in all the posts here, as I'd associate that with something like "I get a blue screen error 0x00000001 whenever I try to run x program". Sure it doesn't include all the relevant info ("have you added new hardware/software lately?"), but at least it's a start.
I know absolutely nothing about cars either, but I would have at least had the common sense to first mention what kind of car I have, what the noise sounded like, where it was coming from... You know, basic stuff that doesn't require any technical knowledge or having to know what the relevant details, but is incredibly useful to those diagnosing the problem.
I'm not talking about the computer skills of posters. I'm talking about common sense, logic, and command of the English language (yes I can tell the difference between someone who doesn't know it because it's a second language, and one who abuses it just for the sake of it).
It also wastes time. There's also no problem with providing extra detail. Like I said, I'd rather sift through lines of irrelevant info to get the required data, than to have to ask questions like "what program are you using?", "what operating system are you using?", or "have you added any new hardware or software recently?", which should have been provided out of common sense, rather than the expectation of knowing what info is relevent.

kaveman1969

August 8th, 2006, 03:35 AM

zipulrich

August 8th, 2006, 04:19 AM

kaveman1969, I realize oracle128 can get a little pedantic & "quoty" (I made that up!), but he means well. What exactly are you on about? Are you angry with the members here for not answering more questions than they already do (all-volunteer, all the time, because they're nice people)? Are you angry with the moderators here for not answering more questions than they already do (all-volunteer, all the time, because they're nice people)?

And how can you tell others to "spend your time answering some posts that have been neglected."? What if I don't know the answer? Should I pretend & simply guess?? And why don't [i]you answer those questions?
Please explain.

kaveman1969

August 8th, 2006, 04:54 AM

DING DING DING!!!! Now that is how to respond to site criticism!!! zipulrich, I hold no animosity towards ANYONE on this site. I don't expect people to sit by their PC waiting to answer "how do I turn on my computer" questions. However there are people who are new to computers and their questions probably seem extremely simple to a lot here, but to the poster, it is important. I will answer what I can, but I'm no PC guru. I know MY system. All of the moderators here have much more experience than me on different OS's and different PC's. If Oracle spent as much time as he did quoting things, and ripping me for not appreciating the site, helping someone who doesen't know squat about a pc, I would never have posted my displeasure in the first place. Look around this site, at posts made, SIMPLE ones, I would think to the mods, and look at the ones that have never been responded to. It looks like the mods say" that's not worth my time to answer". Or anyones for that matter. What am I supposed to say,"someone will help you shortly"? only to have no one respond. It seems like the only post's that get responses are the ones that pique someones interest. The rest seem left hung out to dry

uripyores

August 8th, 2006, 06:22 AM

I like the "simple" questions. :hmm:

oracle128

August 8th, 2006, 06:45 AM

If Oracle spent as much time as he did quoting things, and ripping me for not appreciating the site, helping someone who doesen't know squat about a pc, I would never have posted my displeasure in the first place.Or, thinking in reverse, maybe I'd have more time to respond to legitimate questions if it weren't for people posting criticism in the first place?

Lucky for you, I'm a good multi-tasker.

As already explained, there are several reasons why a post, even one with what may seem like a dead-simple answer, may go unanswered.

Time, Visibility, Given Detail and Helper Knowledge are just the major, obvious factors.

z1p

August 8th, 2006, 02:24 PM

I know a lot of people aren't digging my flavor right now, and that's OK. I don't have a site saying I will help everyone "like" me. You, however, have a site saying you will help people with their computer problems, and the simplest questions for you here, oh brainiest of all brainy, go unanswered. I, being too dumb to figure out how to quote something from another forum on your site here, will just have to ask you to look around. I looked at many forums on your site and found MANY questions not even responded to, much less help offered. Don't get me wrong, as I've said, your site has helped me many times. But, this is a legit complaint, and all of you who feel the need to get mad and tell me BLAH BLAH BLAH, how about spending your time answering some posts that have been neglected.

I just checked and there are only 11 posts made in the last 24 hours (no including jokes) that have not been replied to and two of those were less than 15 minutes old.

kaveman, I don't know that anyone is mad at you, rather I think most of us are having trouble understanding where you're coming from. This site gets many posts a day and the majority gets answered. Granted some of them don't get answered, but I don't believe in the lease its because everyone looks at the question and goes 'its dumb, I'm not wasting my time'.

Rather, I think some posts get missed and and age off the radar. For me part of whether I reply to posts is how many I'm already involved with. I find that if I get involved in too many threads at the same time, I can't be as effective in helping solve the problem. The other thing that limits how many they help is the time they can and are willing to spend on the forum.

BTW - Of the 11 unanswered posts at the time I wrote this, I wouldn't say any were 'easy'. Also kaveman, I think you may be giving us all too much credit. There are many 'easy' questions I have no idea about. For example, I have to investigate the answer for most questions regarding IE, even the simpliest ones, since I use firefox most of the time.

well, take care and do what you can to help around here. That's what I do! :D