Big brother or Patriotism

[Vercades]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050608/ap_on_go_co/congress_patriot_act_4

After reading through it all I noticed they mentioned there would be restrictions, I can only wonder what "type" of restrictions that'll be made.

[mariposa]

More Big Brother every day.

[Harrie]

I know I'm in the minority, and I can even understand why people don't like the Patriot Act, but to me it's necessary and a good thing, and I feel safer with it. Do I feel safe? Heck, no. But I feel safer. I read a lot of books on terrorism and I'm for the Patriot Act. If I have to be Big Brother'd myself, okay then.

Now go ahead and disagree, that's fine, just don't ream me out, okay! :wave:

[mariposa]

Hey Harrie, we disagree. That's perfectly O.K. You may be right but I remember a certain Senator Joe MC Carthy back in the 1950s. A right I value, freedom of speech, started to disapper. Dissent started being labled traitorism. Again in the 60s, expressing disagreement with our policy in Vietnam was called giving aid to the enemy. That's the kind of thing that worries me about the Patriot act. But thinking people can see the same facts and information and come up with different opinions. I'd never ream out anyone for disagreeing with me ! I enjoy a good discussion ! Often I even learn something.

[Spider]

The important thing to remember is when they go and change the "freedom"
rights and laws then you've just lost something.

This may make some people scream but Hitler did the same thing when he
got in power. They slowly started changing things until some people lost all
their freedom. No one noticed Germany slowly turning into the Nazi machine
as a matter of fact they all waved flags the entire way until Russia and America
pinched them like a bad zit!

The McCarthy thing mariposa mentioned was the same thing as Nazism only the
McCarthy hearings happened in a very short amount of time. Everyone was cheering
that nut-bag and his twisted right-hand man Roy Cohn along the whole way.
Now Russians live in America and nobody cares so what was it all about but hype
from politicians...it never existed in the first place.

There was a line in Star Wars III Revenge Of The Sith.
"So this is how freedom dies, with thunderous applause" - Padmé

[minorgeek]

So what is the answer? obviously things as they were will not protect us from fanatics who would destroy the very way of life that is so eloquently being espoused. It is time to realize the wolves are at the door. McCarthy did not attack us. Al Quida did, and will continue to do so until they are rooted out. We need to accept this basic fact: The framers of the constitution did not intend to protect terrorism, and the very people that signed it had less "freedom" than we enjoy.

[mariposa]

Minorgeek, you've summed up just where I think we're headed.The parallels between what's happening now and the rise of Nazism in Germany are terrifying. I've done a lot of reading about this. To say "We must protect our Democracy and our freedom" as we GIVE tHEM UP makes no sense. Just what is it we're protecting. Our Incredible Shrinking Democracy ??? If we allow the Terrorists to force us to redefine Democracy and the basic values by which our country is governed then the Terrorists have indeed won the day.

[Nick Grana]

"When lawmakers seek to rewrite our Fourth Amendment rights, they should at least have the gumption to do so in public," said Lisa Graves, the ACLU's senior counsel for legislative strategy. "Americans have a reasonable expectation that their federal government will not gather records about their health, their wealth and the transactions of their daily life without probable cause of a crime and without a court order."
What's happened to probable cause? Condemned to harsh scrutiny without good reason? We never know what these 'Richard'heads are up to. They don't even know themselves what one group does over another group.

If it's not 'Big Brother' now, you will surely come to know it is later. And it will be amended and amended until we have no rights.
My personal opinions apparently jive with some and scorned by others.
This country is a 50/50 odds place anyway, so it will be pretty equal on both sides of the Act. But with the republicans in all the main seats, you can be sure it will favor that side to a win of any argument.:blush:

[Spider]

So what is the answer?
Man's age-old question, "How do we fix what's killing the future?"

The negative answer is -
You can't stop greed. Wealth and greed are what brought man into this high-tech era we find
ourselves in. Wealth and greed can't be stopped now, it's too late. Now we have to wait for history
to overtake the greed.
Greed killed off all of histories #1 power nations,
Hun's barbarian horde
Ming dynasty
Egypt
Rome
France
England
Germany
and now we watch America perform all the same mistakes and once again they publicly claim
religion drives them when it's quite obvious it's greed.

The positive answer is -
Bush is out in 3 more years and perhaps the replacement will have some moral fiber and a vision.
The machine behind Bush will still be there but the more you try and horde and steal the fuller
your arms get until your like that dog with the bone in his mouth looking at the reflection in the pond
and seeing a bigger bone held by another dog...you let the bone go to steal what you think is
real and next thing you know you have "NO BONE!".

[renegade600]

I would comment on this but I do not what the fbi knocking on my door because according to Bush you are either for the patriot act or you are anti american.

[minorgeek]

My question is still the same. How do we solve the problem? While we debate all these wonderful ideals, there is a real enemy who doesn't play by our rules. Give them more freedom, and they kill more americans. The only problem I see is it is a shame that we must legislate patriotism in the first place. I doubt they were concerned about our wives and children when all the planes were hijacked and flown into buildings. Also we were not alone. Many other countries suffered the tragedy at the world trade center, and I can assure you that they are dealing with it better than we are because their citizens realize the danger. When I see any evidence that the patriot act restricts any law-abiding citizen I will oppose it. Show me evidence. Another question that I have: does anyone seriously believe a terrorist can hide in America without help?

[Spider]

according to Bush you are either for the patriot act or you are anti american.
http://eserver.org/clogic/2003/anti-war%20protest--raleigh/darth_bush.gif
Bush may be a Dark Sith Lord. Another line from Revenge Of The Sith...

"Only Sith deal in absolutes" - Obi-Wan

[minorgeek]

I say again: Is there a better answer? I am not a fan of George Bush for a number of reasons, but give him his due. He is dealing with the problem. If the Democrats were in the majority, we would have a "democratic" patriot act.

[Spider]

I say again: Is there a better answer?
Leave Iraq after all oil fields, utilities, and major government offices are established. Put 1.5 Trillion dollars
into the Iraq bank so they have some buffer money. Set up a conglomerate of Germany, France, England,
and Asia to oversee any attempts for Americans to step outside their borders and force their military
presence on any nation, the ramifications would be the conglomerate enters the USA for inspections
of weapons of mass destruction.

Lions with no teeth and claws lose their aggression very fast.

Will it happen? Never. Why? Too much money involved , and where there is money there is greed. It's not
just the USA it's a universal greed.

The only real solution is to get into genetic breeding of humans and remove the greed proteins and enzymes
produced by the hypothalamus gland. Humanity needs a slight lobotomy.

[z1p]

my 2 cents... see sig :hmm:

[renegade600]

I say again: Is there a better answer?.

who knows, no one knows was illegal per the patriot act - not even congress knows whats in it. It is being used for online piracy, it is being used to bypass the US constitution. If it was just being used to stop real terrorist then maybe it would work. All the fbi or department of homeland security has to do is to declare you a terrorist and you will disappear. Sounds like communist, facist, and dictatorships where individuals would disappear because they were declared enemies of the state.

[Vercades]

I thought that was Thomas Edison, Edit: Zip. Could be wrong though. :wave:

[mariposa]

From Tagen Goddard's Political Wire:
Defining Filibuster
A new poll found that 61% of Americans could not describe or define a "filibuster," while 4% identified it as a medical procedure and 2% said it was a sports team.

That pretty much sums up part of what worries me about our next election. The other parts relate to the power of influence and its relationship with campaign contributions, the ease with which the news is manipulated and the emerging power of the Church in our political process.

And yes, rampant greed is the underlying factor behind most of what's going on right now.

So where do we look for a change in poitical direction ????

By the way minorgeek, given the proposed patriot act, my email could be read, what I've been reading at the Public Library could be shared with the FBI. All this as well as the petitrions I keep signing on the net this could be combined with my history as an activist in the 60s -I was very active re: the Vietnam war- and I could be hauled off to jail without being charged or given legal representation. That feels as though it puts a real cramp in my Civil Liberties

Thank you mods. In the past threads like this have been closed. I really do appreciate the chance to exchange views with a group of intelligent people like the gang here. The tone is completely civil which is refreshing as these things often go at very differently at other sites.

[Spider]

A new poll found that 61% of Americans could not describe or define a "filibuster," while 4% identified it as a medical procedure and 2% said it was a sports team
I was in a focus group before our last federal election. One question asked was
"Can you name the leaders of all the federal parties?" There were about 25 people
in the group and only 1 person knew the leaders [insert modesty here].

What shocked me even more was they asked "Do you know who the name of the current
Prime Minister (our version of President)?" About 10 or so knew that one. The others there
were there for free finger sandwiches and a paycheck.

[minorgeek]

Ben Franklin worked for free, still voted for war, and got hit by lightning playing with a kite in the rain.Now I ask you, is that not a man for all seasons? At any rate, whatever is decided here will not influence the terrorists that are being born and bred to destroy America. I first saw this in the refugee camps in Beirut in the early 60's, and could not believe the hate in their hearts for good old me. After a few wars and gunshot wounds I know this: No amount of money or UN supervision will solve the problem. You can only lead, follow or get out of the way. If you bury your head in the sand, standby for a pain in the glutimmus maximus. They are coming.........

[DELTREE]

What has made AMERICA GREAT?

The Declaration of Independence, The U.S. Constitution and The Bill of Rights ect.;)

Not the politician:eek:, Not the so called U.N.:eek::eek:, and NOT the so called patriot act:dizzy:.

The so called unpatriot act is just New World CRAP!!:disgust:

[Spider]

It's elections that are killing us.

When we all saw there were no WMDs in Iraq and all that garbage unraveled to show
Bush n' his boys knew this and just used that excuse to bust the gate down. The World
knew from that point that the whole thing was a big lie.

Reasoning is next election he gets booted out because he started a war and he lied about
why he needed to start it. So what happens on the election? He squeezes in by a small
margin and gets 4 more years.

Here is British Columbia we have a Premier (same as a State Governor). We were about
1 year away from a provincial election and our premier gets busted for drunk driving in
Hawaii. He got re-elected.

For cryin' out loud, they tried to impeach Clinton because he was having an affair. What
happened to voters?

[Nick Grana]

Humanity needs a slight lobotomy.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me rather than a frontal lobotomy.:dizzy:

To deter and punish terrorist acts in the United States and around the world, to enhance law enforcement investigatory tools, and for other purposes. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, (I guess the comma means more to come)

Patriot Act (http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html)

Let's give you a line item veto power and see what stays and what goes.
I lay my usual words, 50/50. Half would go and half would stay depending on whom is holding the cutting blade or red crayon.

According to Bush, you are for the act or anti-American
I am not for much of the act so Bush can talk into my Purple Heart, Bronze Star, and other various 'Bling Blings' I have around here somewhere.:rotflmao:
What an idiot.:dizzy:

[minorgeek]

Actually, we probably have at least 10 laws on the books already that are sufficient. Politicians always think that more paper or money will solve the problem, and it becomes so convoluted as the process unfolds the end result harms the people that it was meant to protect.

[Snurfen]

Ah comrad! You are missing the point. When Russia have the only accesable oil reserves, wait for the attempted "Police Action", that won't be pretty.

From outside the US, it appears Bush has very little of anything going for him. It would appear that the hawks are running the country and just doing it for personal gain. How on earth a government could allow a debacle like Cheney's company getting all the rebuild contracts and have the bare faced cheek to pretend it isn't part of the whole reason for invading a country is beyond me. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not Yank bashing, there are equally as appalling activities going on in the UK as well).

Politicians - from the bottom to the top they are nothing more than a bunch of self-serving egotists, with a few glorious exceptions.

"Power corrupts, total power corrupts totally".

To put it all in context, I watched an interview with Bob Geldof on TV last night. I know he isn't pc or one who plays the "corridor of powers" games, but what a refreshing and honest outlook on life he has. Pity some of our "leaders" didn't absorb some of his humility and compassion.

[minorgeek]

There will never be a day when Russia has the "only" oil reserves unless Alaska sinks, and then we drill the ocean. I for one am proud to count Great Britian as an ally that can be relied upon in thick and thin despite current european opinion. As for mr. cheney:Probably the all time worst political appointment in history. What is hilarious is that in the early years of his career he fought to dismantle the military. He spent many years helping to cripple the military he now directs. Who say's God doesn't have a sense of humor?

[Spider]

I was watching a show about global studies done on the Earth's remaining oil reserves.
They were concerned about a few things but of most major interest to these people
is always costs in oil deposit extractions.

They had said that the cheapest oil to extract is the type of deposits Iraq has. They were
also saying that the most valuable deposits are the easy-extract ones and one other factor
was very important to them...the size of the deposit as in comparing the World's deposits
to water-balloons for "pocket sizes".

So they go on about where the largest "water balloon" deposits are, especially where the
actual "largest individual" deposit was (as in one large pocket to suck from). Guess where
the largest one is...

...Iraq. As a matter of fact the entire pocket is directly under Iraq.

The study was done by the oil companies...get this, before the first gulf war.

You do the math.

These oil companies are not just American companies they are a conglomeration of all
the top oil companies in the World. I find it also funny [here] that the oil companies have
eliminated Earth's man-made borders (Nationalism). This was a dream of JFK, Nixon, King,
Reagan. Nations still exist but the oil companies have evolved past Nationalism before the
rest of mankind. National global confrontation battles while the oil companies merge into
one being.

Pfft! I find myself asking "Who really are the bad guys here?"

[Snurfen]

Good post Spider, quite a little tickler in that documentary you saw. I'm begining to believe,from all the various sources I've read and seen, that there is in fact a damn site more reserves out there than the oil companies let on. This wouldn't help bump the pruce up now, would it?

minorgeek - interesting bit about Dick being anti-military, previously. I'd be interested in reading up on that one, thanks.

[mariposa]

That was a great post Spider ! Where did you see that Study ? Is it available ? I'd love to see it.

[Spider]

That was a great post Spider ! Where did you see that Study ? Is it available ? I'd love to see it.
It was only after the show I was trying to see the credits as to whom this woman was who was
talking. It never said. What bugged me more was when the host was saying goodbye to her to
end the show the host never said her name.

All I know about her is she is a Canadian woman who is part of (or formed herself) some watch-dog
organization to keep up on what the oil lobbyists and other "power" lobbyists are seeking interest
in as well as doing their own reports on these finding.

The woman herself had said she has written 9 books.

It was one of those "catch-the-last-bit-of-a-program" so it wasn't something I had intentionally sat
down to watch unfortunately.

[mariposa]

Any idea what the station was-TV ? Radio? , the name, date and time of the program ? Maybe I could track it down that way.

[minorgeek]

Here is a link to some good stuff on Mr Cheney's record: http://www.democrats.org/specialreports/cheney_record/ Why he is in charge of defense is a mystery to me. If his record is any indication, and his ideas actually happened, we would be throwing rocks instead of cruise missles. I am sure there is more to this story than we will ever know. I realize he is not directly in charge of defense, however Rumsfeld is a Cheney clone.

[Spider]

Any idea what the station was-TV ?
CTV
Vicki Gabereau
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/show/CTVShows/1063225051530_58629651/

4...6...8 weeks ago. Last interview of the show.

Vicki Gabereau was the interviewer and it was on that show listed above.

[mariposa]

Thanks Spider. I'm on it !

[Spider]

I had a look through here...
http://www.ctv9.ca/gabereau.jsp?id=/gabereau/other/books_04-05.htm
...but I didn't see any faces I recognized in the womans names there. You might have to email Vicki.

[Acelord]

I think the patriot act is an insult to every single American who died to keep this country free, the forefathers would cry if they saw the state of our government. When it comes to politics I'm pretty far to the left, but regardless of that this should be condemned by democrats and republicans alike. In the last four years America has been terrorist free, there is no need for such an act, instead why don't we broaden our intelligence community or infiltrate terrorists organizations? But while doing these things we give everyone due process, because even terrorists should have a fair trial, Innocent till proven guilty is the phrase I believe. Man, if there's something that really gets my blood boiling, its this very issue. In my opinion every American and veteran should be personally offended by this act that defies everything Americans have fought and died for, All personal political ideologies aside, this act is disgusting.

[minorgeek]

Because there have been no overt attacks by no means indicates we are terrorist free, It simply means the problem is under control. What is due process for a terrorist? "due" implies some act on the part of the party that is being granted protection under US law. A terrorist has no country and does not submit to any law willingly unless it is to further terrorism. We have yet to encounter one who has any remorse and probably never will. Unless I am mistaken, we do not behead them. Can they say the same? Do they afford due process? I ask these questions not to belittle your ideas,but to seek some common ground for us all. This problem is not just an american one. "due process" is viewed quite differently outside our borders.

[kage]

the forefathers would cry if they saw the state of our government.

IMHO, if they saw the state of government today, they would withdraw from the government and create a new country....sound familiar?

[Snurfen]

Unless I am mistaken, we do not behead them. Can they say the same? Do they afford due process?
From outside the US, this part of the argument doesn't seem to hold water. Timothy McVie was an evil man who perpertrated an appaling act of murder. It's splitting hairs whether your behead him, stick a target and hood on him and give him to the firing squad, lethal injection, electric chair etc etc etc.

In the UK we suffered terrorist attacks for years from the IRA and others of their ilk. We just adapted and got on with it, without bringing in ridculous measures to curtail personal freedom to the extent the Patriot Act is going to do (what a misnamed Act if ever there was one!). I speak from personal experience, I was bombed twice in work. First they blew up the Gents toilets on the 1st floor, when I was on the 6th floor - loud bang and a bad smell!. Second time, they blew up a truck about 200 yards from the same building. A roof tile from the building nearest the bomb was blown through two panes of glass which were covered in blast screen, past my head and embedded itself in a Tandem VLX mainframe behind me. I got covered in glass and had to change my trousers.

If the UK tried to pull a stunt like this I wouldn't give my local representatives a minutes peace until they committed whole heartedly to work towards repealling it.

[Philis]

We have lost, no legislation without representation.
free speech.
we should be afraid of lawlessness but we should be more afraid of laws.
They:evillaugh
will continue to make laws until whatever you do wll be illegal. but what they do will never become illega,l like stomping on the constitution.
I will continue to download illegal music,
I will continue to jaywalk.
I will continue to be who I am.
s c r e e w em' , Anthony Hopkins, Legend of the Falls.
be afraid, be very afraid , Jeff Goldblum, The Fly.
i'll be watching You, Sting, Every Breath You Take.
F R E E D O M , Mel Gibson, Braveheart.
Give me freedom or give me death, Patrick Henry.

Of all the lies, that i've heard, of all the cruel cruel tricks that have been played, of all the plagues sent down upon the earth this could be the worst, this could be the worst....., Sea Level, The Best of Sea Level, 1977.


:michaelan

[mariposa]

Good Girl Phyllis !!!

[Philis]

:raphael:

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/c20d6182/c3c1/__tn_/c425.jpg?phqMerCBhnUSWgI_
I tell , you tell, we all tell a story of repression and fear. Or have you not felt the bite of the sting as it wraps itself into your skin to get in To leave you numb and screaming. -philis-

who's gonna tell you when it's too late, who's gonna tell you things aren't so great, whos' gonna tell you nothings wrong, who's gonna pick you up when you fall, who's gonna hang it up when you call, who's pay attention to your dreams, who's gonna plug their ears when you scream, who's gonna hold you down when you shhake You can't go on thinking nothings wrong. who's gonna come around when you break, Who's gonna listen when you scream, You can't go on thinking nothings wrong. -The Cars-

[Nick Grana]

A new poll found that 61% of Americans could not describe or define a "filibuster," while 4% identified it as a medical procedure and 2% said it was a sports team.
You don't have to be a brainiac to vote. You also don't have to be a brainiac to be elected as is the case now.

A terrorist can be your neighbor or friend. Ask McVeigh's friends and family.
Terrorist don't wear a red T on their forehead.

In most of our wars the enemy looked just like our allies.

Terrorists flew planes into U.S. buildings. One has to wonder, in all these years, with Pearl Harbor being as close as any country coming to U.S. borders hostile, that this was not inevitable some day. As sad as it was, it could have been, and maybe will be, a nuclear device small enough to transport easily but strong enough to kill many, many more thousands than the planes did.

We seem to be a snake eating our tail. Before long, it's gone.:eek:

[minorgeek]

The really ironic thing is we taught them to fly. Wouldn't doubt they were also receiving some sort of public dole.