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#1
August 25th, 2002, 05:36 AM
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Bootdisks Revisited. Windows setup methods.
Dear Gentlebeings,
originally this was about making a windows 98 bootdisk for windows setup, and how to run setup. However, time passes and Windows XP and Vista came to market. So, while this topic is in 98 forum, we will eventually get to those newer versions of Windows. Please, take a deep breath for a few definitions of a bootdisk. It can either be your standard windows start disk, a windows 95 emergency recovery disk (ERD), a windows 98 Emergenency Boot Disk (EBD), a windows setup disk, a simple DOS system disk, a utilities disk, a customised disk, a USB stick, your windows setup CD, a slipstreamed and customised windows install CDR/w or DVDR/w. It can be a SET of floppies you need for an upgrade windows 2000 or XP, and it could be a NON Microsoft bootdisk. You can breathe again... The main thing in this topic is that I think one should get to know there are easy commands quite dangerous to your data, and same commonly known commands can be turned into safe methods. So, while originally about getting ready for setup and only that, this topic will also show techniques one can use to prepare a machine for Windows SETUP in situations where keeping data alive is a high priority. What about data recovery? I make NO promises. Yet, data recovery is mentioned, and a few hands on things I had to do learned me a few things one should be aware of to make it have a chance. Nowadays, you may think that that old klunky floppy drive is considered of litttle use, but I think not. A Floppy drive can still be useful for installing windows XP in our modern machines... Have you ever had to hit F6 for that driver you had to have during setup? It asks for a floppy. It "may" find them on a USB stick, but your mileage can vary. When you have no luck (no floppy/no USB access), one CAN get around that by integrating the drivers onto a CDR/DVDR build built from original.. I do hope you find some of the things mentioned here helpful. It has many tips and links. Some can help you help people when, for instance;
Yet, all of them booters have been systemised, somehow. One could wonder "what's in a name?", but, it's not just for semantics. ======== This topic got a nickname once. It got called "Butter" long time ago, and that name kinda stuck. (Can you figure this out? **  )It gets updated when new information reaches me. Oh yes, Linux, XP, Vista, unattended und so weiter get mentioned, but ... 98 was what it started with.. It is still useful to know how one can make the bootdisk one needs when one has no internet access. And when you read all of it, you should have learned how to avoid a few mishaps. Kind regards, Jaak ** YES, it is caused by my Flemishness.
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#2
August 25th, 2002, 05:37 AM
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How can you make safe bootdisks.
- there are many sorts of Booters.
================================ Let's show you how to make some... We start with windows 98, and we see it evolve.. 1) Windows 98 very own "start disk" When one needs a "start disk", this first method to create one is most widely known. However, I'd like to mention that when you want to create it, you got to have a working computer, and even more IMPORTANT, it has to be free of VIRUS. Therefore, and first of all, again scan the PC for viruses using a RECENTLY updated antivirus tool. Then create a bootable floppy by going to CONTROL PANEL > SOFTWARE > START DISK > CREATE (whatever was on the floppy you pop in will be overwritten) You see where the name start disk came from? In most cases, this floppy will support your cdrom reader. By the way, it is also called a setup or installation floppy! (because it's that type of booter that creates a ramdrive.... and it has a menu aimed to direct you to run setup.) It's much more advanced than the original setup floppy that came with win95. (the windows 95 setup floppy one rarely recieved only had CDROM support if you, or the vendor, edited it to make that happen.) 2) Creating a "start disk" from "control panel" may not work! Yes, I saw some systems fail making one.... When it happens, chances are this was caused by an option chosen during windows setup, and thus your \command\ebd\ folder is missing in windows. You can still make it when that happens. You can point it to the win98 folder on your win98 CD, or, in some cases, the C:\windows\options\cabs folder note; PRECOPY1.cab is a cabinet file one finds in all windows 9x and Millennium versions. One can search the computer for PRECOPY1.cab and if the folder is on the drive, you'll find it. 3) the EBD I seldom use above two methods... I really recommend you make an "Emergency Boot Disk". This EBD is the booter I prefer. Primo; IT WILL HAVE NO VIRUS. Secundo; it does not create a RAMdrive at boot, which helps avoid driveletter confusion. Tertio; it supports all them CDROMs the normal start disk does. You will one day need a virus free EBD, and you can make one from from within windows 9x; Pop your original windows 98 CD in, hold shift so it won't load, open explorer & navigate to tools\mtsutil\fat32ebd\fat32ebd.exe Pop in a new floppy, and run fat32ebd.exe. It will warn you that whatever was on the floppy will be overwritten. This Windows' 98 "Emergency Boot Disk" has different content than the standard one made from control panel.. You can also do this on another MsDOS/Windows based machine, even if it runs another version.. However; Because fat32ebd.exe does its thing with real mode access to the drive, you won’t be able to do it from within windows XP explorer, nor from XP command line. I Know... You really ought not mix versions when you want to launch setup. You don't want to work on a OSR2 (aka 95 with fat32), win98 or ME machine with a dos 6.x systemdisk. But, you can make an EBD on a machine running an older version. In fact, as soon as you can access your windows CDROM in DOS, you can run fat32ebd.exe from DOS too. For instance; from a DOSprompt, run [CDROM-driveletter]:\tools\mtsutil\fat32ebd\fat32ebd.exe Note; fat32ebd is also on an upgrade version win98 CD. When you read FAT32EBD.TXT you learn it will make a virus-free floppy. You gotta work on an infected machine? NEVER trust any recently used floppy... You better start with a clean booter, and you just learned how you can make one. I still think a windows 98 start disk (and the EBD..) is a lot more useful than windows millennium's start disk. This EBD can be augmented somewhat... (just like you could augment the standard start disk.) I would strongly suggest you copy [CDROM-driveletter]:\tools\oldmsdos\EXT.exe (VERY USEFUL) [CDROM-driveletter]:\win98\scanreg.exe (USEFUL) [CDROM-driveletter]:\win98\smartdrv.exe - and if your windows is same version... C:\windows\command\chkdsk.exe C:\windows\command\diskcopy.com to this floppy. NOTE - if the version you run is not same than the CD you are looking at, you can get the latter two files from within [CDROM-driveletter]:\win98\base4.cab Wherein you find EBD.CAB. (which contains these files) You can then extract them from within ebd.cab There are many things one can do from within good old pure REAL MODE DOS... The CDrom wants you to run setup. A floppy is then very suitable because you can can just get on with it. 4 :( 4 a) Then there are People with a recovery CD. Packard bell, NEC, Compaq / HP, DELL, and so on... Some CD's are called RECOVERY or quick restore CD's, and some are called reinstallation CD. They cannot be used on another brand computer (they check the machine's hardware), and the files they contain can be "encrypted". When you have such a CD, you can usually still make a start disk thru option panel. When the system says the files it needs are missing/or when it begs for the windows CD, point it to \windows\options\cabs where the creation tool will then extract the files from the cabinets it finds there (provided this folder is not damaged/wiped) OR, look in programs, system utilities and see what smartrestore can do for you... 4 b) Now, If the machine still runs, but is infected, they need a way to create a virus free booter. Their disc is not a retail or OEM windows CD. However, when they browse the recovery CD, they should find at least one file called makeboot.bat or makedisk.bat or even makedisk.exe, and that one makes them a boot floppy from files on the CDROM. With some brands of recovery-disc, this creates a floppy not unlike a "start disk". However, it is entirely possible that this makes you a SYSTEM RESTORE diskette. With a little luck and digging, you might find more than one file (they are often in a folder called tools or system), and you could then make you the restore floppy, utilities floppies, and start disk. One day, they may very well become your last resource, and you should create these floppies. (You have one that got delivered with the machine? floppies do get damaged/go bad... so you might as well start digging to make you a fresh one if the need for one should arise.) Makeboot.bat or makedisk.bat (or create.exe ??) can be launched on another working and virus free machine. (once again, windowx XP may not allow that you run it from within explorer) When you search this restore CD, you may even find fat32ebd.exe (I found it on a DELL Reinstallation CD, so some brands do have it) So far, all brands of recovery discs I looked at offer a method to create a good booter straight from the CD. These restore discs have readme files and help documents I suggest you read them. 4 c) These days, some of these brands ship machines without the recovery CD's. On some, they are hidden quite well. (that's reasonably safe. You do NOT notice them when browsing the disks, so you don't delete them. But, you are then often not aware that you are missing something.) You don't burn them? And then you get in a reall mess? Maybe you lose access to the drive? Well, I guess you are then really sunk and off to the nearest service center.. Where they lose you all your data. (Consumers demand better service, and nowadays, at least some service centers will ask about wether you want your data backed up. That is NICE. It also costs money. W/i reasonable! I got the impression data DVD/CD and working hours costs were around 130 Euro. BUT... My thinking is that this is when backup is not same as data recovery -the hard way- and the hard way is when drives are "bust" so that easy backup don't do.) All in all, a service center that asks, is paying attention to consumer need. And that is Better than nothing! (If they don't, and your time costs money, ask about it yourself) => ( 4 a & b & c ) I'd sure like to get some more info on this! ---- 5) back in time, to a windows version published august 1995 That one has the ERD. it is a lifesaver for users of windows 95 It was/is an often overlooked gem. And it is on your windows 95 CDrom. ((Fot the first 95 version, a 17 floppies version was also available. I believe ERD was not in there)) On that CDrom, you find a THE EMERGENCY RECOVERY UTILITY in OTHER\MISC\ERU\ERU.EXE Run it, it will install the ERD utility. Then you find a new ERD folder on C: In there, you see a helpfile... read it. Then run the utility, and save your registry and boot configuration files to floppy, and/or to a folder of your choice (I used to do both) With the utility, one could backup configuration files prior and after one intended to make important changes to windows. (Note that this is not the same as a full backup.. It was still wise to make a full backup. The restored configuration could still fail if there were too many missing files/overwritten system files) Anyways, if things went wrong, you booted to DOS to run ERD.exe, and viola, one could quite often restore to a working configuration.. TIP, I gave the files names like 970318 and 970512 so I saw what date they was made when I ran DIR. That was for windows 95... They actually had rollback for important settings running off MsDOS. Far too many overlooked that gem, but I installed it on all machines I built then. ------ 6) For the XP setup diskettes, you can download these from Microsoft. In XP, you should at the very least ALSO install the recovery console in XP, and then make your XP' system REPAIR disk(s) Far too many don't have that repair floppy, which is too bad. How do you install the recovery console? suppose your CDROM drive is letter D: start >> run >>> D:\i386\winnt32.exe /cmdcons (Let's not forget to tell you that you have to update these repair disks from time to time)... 7) back to booters... you can download many good ones right at CTH. http://www.cybertechhelp.com/html/downloads/index.php More links later on. Oh yes, bootdisk.com are a good source of information. Some people download the file from the internet and save it to a floppy, but that is not the way to do it. Save the download to a (new) folder on hard disk. Once you have saved to a folder, doubleclick the downloaded file, and in most cases this will create a booter for you. (TIP; don't use your desktop to save downloads on... when these files extract, you can get your desktop swamped.) They are uncommon nowadays, but some downloads just extract their files (They may even come as a zip which needs unzip rather than self-extracting zips.). Follow instructions from the readme they usually have. And then, of course, once you made a booter, you have to test the thing. Boot from this floppy you just created and see if you can access your cdrom from it. HOW? IF your machine won't launch a floppy, FIRST check your BIOS settings for BOOT ORDER. If you booted to the DOSprompt from a floppy, it is at A:\>_ And if CDROM support works, the screen tells you which letter was assigned to your cdrom-drive(s)... this letter is what I refer to when I say [CDROM-letter]:\ or [letter]:\ ================== tips and notes; ================== for all gentlebeings; in Windows 98 you can run scanregw to make a fresh backup of configuration files, and to restore it from within DOS one uses Scanreg /restore ..... RUN A SEARCH ACTION FOR *.DOC AND *.TXT on your windows CD or restore disc. You will be amazed when you read about the goodies and tips & tricks you missed. Same thing goes for the windows folder. ...... How do I see file extentions? To see .exe and .com extention in a windows machine, one has to enable "view all known extentions" in the windows explorer "folder view options". You can also select to see hidden and system files.. (the inf files for example) Now, while this is VERY useful at times, it can also be a problem for those NOT used to see that kind of file info. (Heck, I suddenly realised most users don't use windows explorer? And you ought to know, "My computer" behaves in a different way the windows explorer filemanger does!) In any case, if you are NOT used to this view, reset to default after you are done doing what you needed the tweaked view for. ....... boot sidenotes * When you have more than one CDROM drive; When you start from floppy, you may have to try all supported letters... For instance; letters you given to CDROM devices are G: and H: then type dir G: and hit <enter> dir H: and hit <enter> * For bootable CD People with more than one device may have to try which one boots. When they boot from CDROM and choose to get to the command prompt, they too get to see A:\>_ In most cases, your cdromdrive is supported, and running dir on the drive shows files and directories on the CD. A later section will talk about these situations in which the drive is not supported/detected. major edits, 2006/aug/06
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#3
August 25th, 2002, 05:38 AM
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LET'S START TALKING ABOUT SETTING UP A HARD DISK FOR WINDOWS 9x.
Most times, that is quite simple. CTH has some tutorials on fdisk, format, and setup. Murf's garage is worth a visit too. I hear you think, I been there, and knew most of it, so why should I read this thing here? You know, most tutorials I saw on the web, even Microsoft's, assume there is but ONE hard drive, and that it is brand new and empty. That is NOT always so. A good many people add a hard drive, and a good many hard drives are (later) moved from one machine into another. In short, there are quite a few situations where the above assumption is downright dangerous to your data... YOUR DATA COULD BE WORTH MORE THAN YOUR COMPUTER (bussinesses need it...) Even if it is not crucial/non-reproducable, losing data off a drive means loss of time. When you don't use a precautionary step by step method to look at your drives before you do things to a hard disk or partition, you could say goodbye to data you wanted to keep.. You could perhaps not believe that even looking at a drive can do harm... I will tell you that you better come prepared, because there CAN be pitfalls... So, let us first look at pitfalls. -------- One of the pitfalls COULD BE your booter. PLEASE NOTE, a boot disk with another version of DOS may cause trouble for Windows SETUP. Please try stay within same version, ESPECIALLY if you NEED to make C: BOOTABLE. Why? In some instances IO.SYS is not properly refreshed by setup. http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/ar...s/Q149/1/10.ASP In light of this; if you have no matching version boot floppy, you can either create a matching version, OR... during format, simply not use the /s aka SYS switch, and not run SYS command. (In fact, you seldom need to systemise the harddrive before you run setup, since Windows setup will do that during setup.) This io.sys problem seems to be specific to older DOS versions (up to and including MsDOS 6.22a) You should not be using a DOS 6.22 or ealier booter to prepare your hard disk anyway, since it cannot handle FAT32... So, if you have a dos 5.0 or 6.22/win95 booter with CDROM support as a starting point, you better make that win98 Emergency Boot Disk straight from CDROM. (first make a diskcopy of that old version... and put a fresh one in when fat32ebd asks for a floppy.) And then use the win98 EBD. It will have FAT32 support and you are then able to make partitions greater than 2 Gigabyte (Do you realise you have to TEST the booter you made? When the EBD doesn’t support your old reader, this older version booter has a proprietary cdrom driver you can copy to win98's EBD, and you can also copy its config.sys and autoexec.bat to the EBD. If you do this right, booting from this changed EBD floppy will then load the correct driver.) The danger can be the that one uses the wrong version, so... one will need to know ways to find out which windows/DOS version you have in use. windows Version numbers You can also find out which windows CDROM version you have, or what version these setup files in the options folder are. On a working machine... Just rightclick setup.exe to look up the version number. TIP... you can compare this with what you see at the dosprompt. At the dosprompt, VER will tell you what version is running. (you do not want to run DOS 6.2x disktools on a fat32 win 9x drive...) You read all this, and yes, I hear you groan. Why boot off a floppy? I can but repeat that not all windows CD's are bootable. And, there are instances you simply shouldn't boot straight from the windows CD. There are other pitfalls ahead... FDISK itself. Fdisk has versions, dos 6x and win95 could not handle FAT32 Win95b aka OSR2 started FAT32 support for larger drives and partitions. (win95 still does not support drives greater than 32 gigabyte.) Windows 98 can go beyond 32 Giga per partition. (Even when it CAN, it is really not recommended you go beyond 32Gb partitions. Scandisk has a problem when it is larger.) BUT there is worse, a cosmetic brainbreaker in the FDISK version present in win98 and 98SE can cause havoc. WHEN YOU WANT TO USE 98's FDISK ON A DRIVE WITH A CAPACITY LARGER THAN 64.8 GIGABYTE, YOU NEED A NEWER VERSION OF FDISK.EXE. (the "cosmetic" issue can confuse you real good, see) IF your hard drive is larger than 64.8 GIGA, you COPY a newer version of FDISK on this floppy first. See Microsoft article on issues with Fdisk over 64 giga, where you can download and install it You can even do this on a computer with smaller drive. ( if you want to retain the original on this machine, FIRST move or rename to save the original FDISK.EXE, then install. ) http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?...B;EN-US;q263044 Installing this update will replace fdisk.exe in windows\command and in \windows\options, but not in \command\EBD folder. Because of this, when you make a floppy from control panel it will NOT have the newer fdisk, so you still need COPY the NEW version of fdisk found in \COMMAND\ over the one on FLOPPY. And then make a diskcopy. (a simple trick to work around the cosmetic issue while using 98 Fdisk is to use percentages.) One can read more about issues with drivesizes here http://www.hexff.com/w98_hd.php Note; Windows Millennium's start disk does not have this drivesize limitation.. If you surf the boards, you must have seen the advice to use an 98SE start disk when you gotta work on ME systems... one of the reasons people tell you this is because the ME "start disk" will not allow you to systemise the hard disk... A windows 98 booter is more popular, and while ME users are advised to use 98 tricks, remember at least one thing here... You cannot always mingle. Also note that an XP booter won't work in ME. --------- There are other possible pitfalls. It can only get more interesting. WHAT IF you have OVERLAY loaded on you HARD DISK; A Disk Drive Overlay is used to overcome a BIOS drive size limit. One sometimes uses it to put a large capacity hard disk in an older system that does not recognise the full size of the hard disk. When your machine needs and has an overlay, and your machine BIOS is set to first try boot from FLOPPY or CDROM and you do so, the overlay is bypassed because you do not load the overlay from hard disk. Overlay software normally gives you an option to boot from floppy, but does that only after it got the options screen while initiating the bootprocess from HARD-DISK. In other words, if you boot straight from a floppy, you may have bypassed an overlay, and the hard disk may inexplicably become invisible to DOS... or show a size of 504MB only... Windows 98's FDISK not giving you the fat 32 option on a high capacity hard disk can be a giveaway symptom too... (There are other ways to find out if there was/is an overlay which is discussed later in the thread... This symptomatic info is briefly mentioned here, since you want to load the overlay during boot time if your disk uses an overlay.) what if you have been using dual boot, where parts of the hard drive were formated into another filesystem, like NTFS or linux. It's not really what butter was originally about, but... M$-DOS won't see NTFS nor linux, so you cannot access the files in there from a DOS prompt. (there are specialist tools to get files off NTFS partitions while running DOS, but some of those I heard about cost an arm and a leg.) Windows 9x's FDISK cannot even delete linux partitions. I've also noticed that in dualboot systems -win98/win2000 or XP- where win98 was put on first, and the other OS is on another drive, if one formats the C: drive, you zap the dual boot option. We also know that fdisk /mbr kills LILO, and having no bootloader, you risk making the linux partition inaccessible. Oh, btw, when you make errors while setting up linux, that can make your windows inaccessible.. What I am driving at here is that you want to prepare for circumstances like these, and should create the system rescue floppies in win2000 and XP (may be one also finds such things in linux) just do it folks... Nose around in the OS, and/or on the CDs it came on, and you will find the tools to make these disks. And then there are drives [Compaq comes to mind] which can have a small partition which will hold their proprietary BIOS and/or system utilities. I can but suggest you take good care of the restore and rescue diskettes, utlities diskettes, and CD's, or make them, and, you should at the very least DISKCOPY the diskettes... If you have recovery or restore CDROMs, and the restore or emergency recovery diskette to go with the set, PLEASE make two diskcopies of that precious diskette... I still haven't had a good look at LINUX. Kind regards, Jaak
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#4
August 25th, 2002, 05:38 AM
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utilities on a bootdisk
Many people create booters with utilities...
To avoid pitfalls, you may need to make some too. So, LET'S START LOOKING AT SOME THIRD PARTY TOOLS that fit on FLOPPY. You might as well consider getting yourself some useful tools like; delpart (from Microsoft's NT 3.51 ) http://russelltexas.com/delpart.htm and wipeout (see our download section) Wipeout is a fast tool that simply deletes all partition info off a drive. It has a little peculiarity. What fdisk /status reports as drive 1 is called C: by wipeout. (it does not KNOW which letters it actually contains) What fdisk /status reports as drive 2 is called D: by wipeout. (NOT which letters it actually contains) gdisk.exe for DOS came with GHOST software from NORTON. You can probably still find the version that was once a free symantec download. ( I used gdisk.exe -symantec in a google search. ) and, MBRWORK http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/utilities.html The advantages of delpart, gdisk and mbrwork are that they CAN SAVE partitioning INFO... That can come in VERY handy. I can advise you do so before you wipe the table, so to speak. Actually, one can copy lots of utils to several floppies, and boot off just one. I recommend you writeprotect floppies to avoid infection. But, remember that some utils need disk access to save info. When you run these, you can first copy them to hard disk, or run diskcopy to create a copy of your floppy. (The copy will have to stay with the machine anyway.) (And IF you made a bootable util CDR, you still have drive B: to copy to...) CTH has added the ultimate BOOTCD to download section. I will mention and recommend UBCD4WIN, because it has a good toolkit, and you can update them (that is an IMPORTANT feature). Hey? It is for XP? http://www.ubcd4win.com/ Well, yes. Another handy free tool I once discovered was xclone. xclone can be used to copy folders only, but when you do that in REAL MODE DOS, it does not preserve long names. (When it is used to clone an entire partition, long names are found intact.) (links to xclone were removed, it apparently became clonemaxx... xclone can still be googled) So, naturally, I remembered that I once looked for one that did preserve them when you want to copy folders. http://www.odi.ch/prog/lfn/index.php GO read that readme... but here is a QUICK TIP... For wildcards, use a SINGLE BULLET * and do use /v ;-) There's not a great many Users with an NTFS for DOS floppy on hand... Here is a freeware version http://www.ntfs.com/products.htm While we are on the subject of third party utilities, let me mention the EBD made directly from a windows 98 cdrom has most of the files one normally sees extracted from ebd.cab when one uses a "start disk" or "setup disk". (Ebd.cab extracts into ramdrive where they are called diagnostic tools.) In the EDB, which does NOT use a ramdrive, one sees that chkdsk.exe is missing, and chkdsk is a useful tool one should put on it. (chkdsk can be used to determine if there is a discrepancy in memory size, which can tell you about the presence of a boot virus. The normal memory size is 655.360 Bytes. http://support.microsoft.com/support...s/Q82/9/23.ASP So, AFTER THIS EBD WAS CREATED, and since there is still space left for small tools, I strongly suggest one adds > C:\windows\smartdrv.exe C:\windows\scanreg.ini C:\windows\command\scanreg.exe C:\windows\command\chkdsk.exe C:\windows\command\diskcopy.com and C:\windows\command\scandisk.ini - (scandisk.ini is useful for scandisk /CUSTOM) - - Hmmm, EXT.exe could replace the extract tool (if that floppy is full delete extract.exe ) Ext.exe should be on hard disk too, but it is on the CDrom you used to make that EBD... [CDROM-driveletter]:\tools\oldmsdos\EXT.exe (VERY USEFUL) Users of windows (up to and including 98 SE), please replace fdisk.exe with the updated one if you have to work on drives bigger than 64 giga Some of the examples below will use smartdrv, which the EBD did not have (so that's why you add it). You can use a copy of the EBD and open notepad (or edit in DOS) and create the file A:\autoexec.bat All it needs is (in notepad, this is easy, paste the following into it ) Code:
LH smartdrv set DIRCMD=/w /o /p /a rem echo type DIR to see the tools on this disk echo for help, type help to see other commands echo for help on scandisk, type scandisk /? rem echo IF drive C: was locked by previous unsuccessful echo scandisk, type unlock C: (first click all file types to make sure the extention stays BAT. Otherwise, in notepad, it becomes autoexec.bat.TXT again open notepad (or edit in DOS) and create A:\config.sys This one needs; Code:
lastdrive=Z device=himem.sys DEVICE=EMM386.EXE NOEMS files=16 buffers=16 dos=high,umb stacks=9,256 Otherwise, in notepad, it becomes config.sys.TXT BTW, the line with lastdrive=Z is quite important. ========= LET'S NOT FORGET a truly basic boot floppy for other DOS utils [start button] [run] command (opens a dosbox) format A: /s <enter> This makes a bootable floppy (without CDROM support) you can copy selected utilities onto. You could copy the following files onto it; attrib.exe chkdsk.exe deltree.exe diskcopy.com edit.com edit.hlp emm386.exe fdisk.exe find.exe format.com himem.sys label.exe move.exe scandisk.exe scandisk.ini smartdrv.exe sys.com xcopy.exe xcopy32.MOD (= FAT32 support for xcopy in win98) One can build an essential toolbox. for instance, I used to make disks with the norton utilities for DOS, Norton's GHOST, and a virus scanner/virus remover kit for DOS. Some utilities want plenty low memory space, This requires a memory manager, which gets loaded when himem.sys and emm386.exe are configured to be loaded from within config.sys and autoexec.bat (see above in this post) I usually set that with the AUTO option, but the option NOEMS gives you more base memory. = = = Did you know that you can boot off that floppy I just described to retrieve productkey from a messed up PC? It has EDIT.com, see... edit C:\windows\system.dat (hit enter) hit ALT and use search go look for productkey you will also see the windows version (the key you see is for that version, so knowing the version can save you some trouble.) The registry can be several megabyte, so you may need AUTO option set for memory management in that floppy. I know I did it with AUTO and it worked. But, if you used NOEMS instead (what gives you more Base memory, which some proggies require.), and it works, that's OKAY by me. I mention this so you know that if it tells you it runs out of memory, you can edit A:\config.sys and change NOEMS to AUTO. Reboot to have the change take effect, and try again... Getting that key is but one of many things one can do with that simple floppy... anyway... Here's yet another method to create a boot floppy you can use to boot another persons infected machine with. (or one of your own...) Assuming cdrom is a full copy of windows 98 (not an upgrade/not a "restore" disk) Select to boot from it in BIOS, and boot from the CD. If you need access to the files on CD, accept cdrom support. But, the point is, to make that boot floppy, you want to get to the dosprompt only... IF setup starts, you do NOT accept licence. (That gets you back to DOSprompt.) Anyway, once you have the dosprompt, put an empty floppy in floppy drive. Then you do the following format B: /s /u <enter> copy *.* B:\ <enter> remove the floppy, and slide the write protect tab to write protect it. sidenote > Even when you can read the CDROM this way, FAT32EBD.EXE CANNOT CREATE the EBD booter. It's one of those things that won't allow you to use B: Now, same thing, with a useful twist. I want to show you how to make a good floppy you could use as a good boot image for making Win98 bootable CDroms. This requires you have a copy of xclone on hard disk... If you have that, you can make that really special floppy... For your own "boot off hard disk" "boot off CDROM" booter. You can find and then use xclone like this. dir xclone /s (now suppose it is found in folder called C:\tools) C:\tools\xclone a: b: The boot disk you can make this way lacks edit.com, and the ebd.cab file in there is not used, since the windows 98 CD (when you boot off it) does not create a ramdrive. This one is a great one to make bootable CD's with your own menus from... (This booter checks for win98\setup.exe to determine CD-drive letter) sidenote; Remember there CAN be an overlay on a hard disk, and that when you boot off a CDROM, you have bypassed the overlay... (One you make yourself can be made to load DDO. You create a floppy wich loads DDO first, and then make your bootable CD with the DDO floppy in the A: drive.) The file that looks for win98\setup.exe is findcd.exe, and this tool can be hex-edited to make it look for another file. GOING THAT ROUTE, you can, for instance make a copy fndghost.exe or findghpe.exe and make your own restore discs... I guess you boys and gals get the drift... You can make your own preconfigured win98 CD this way... (The windows CD has a tool to create your own msbatch.inf and there is a method where you use the msbatch.inf you made for a real fast clean//overinstall setup.) last edited, March 2008 Kind regards, Jaak
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#5
August 25th, 2002, 05:40 AM
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Windows setup needs an active formatted partition and a brand new hard disk hasn't got any..
People also like to add hard drives to their machine, for good reason. So... Let's start talking about : RE-PARTITIONING / PARTITIONING FDISK uses a DESTRUCTIVE METHOD, DATA GETS WIPED Doing this while more than one drive is hooked up is kind of risky but this is, after all, what this topic is about... Still, you can disconnect the old system drive if you don't want to mistakenly delete or re-partition the wrong drive. WARNING: You should not run FDISK from within a DOSBOX in Windows. Another word of warning. You may think the drive on IDE1 master is system disk C: This is not always the case. You have to check this, because Windows 9x will set up on the first ACTIVE it finds and can set up on. Sidenote; in dualboot; if the active partition is NTFS, it should go for another partition. It's much better to first do win9x, and then w2k, or XP, though.. Sidenote two; NT4 requires a FAT16 partition for dualboot. Before you start partitioning a harddisk, consider getting the MANUFACTOR DISK TOOLS. Some of those they provide at their website can save you a LOT of time. You can use them on a used hard disk too, and it will warn you that all data on the drive you let it do its thing on will get lost. sidenote: When you get the drivemanufactor tools, check for compatibility with the operating system you intend to use. ** Knowledge Base article;How to Use the Fdisk Tool and the Format Tool to Partition or Repartition a Hard Disk Okay, I assume you have already read the Knowledge base article. Well, you'll find I've added a few twists, so as to avoid a few pifalls ** In these procedures I assume you have more than one hard disk, or you want to add a hard drive you want to use as a new disk, and it had to become your C: drive. I repeat, doing this while another disk with your data is hooked up can be dangerous to your data. One can disconnect the old hard disk if you don't want to mistakenly repartition the wrong drive... Whatever the goal... When you add a hard drive, or have to work on a hard drive that has been used before, you should use these initial steps anyhow, and take notes... One begins, pen and notebloc at the ready... boot from the EBD or win9x start disk fdisk /status esc fdisk y 4 (show info on hard disk one.) esc 5 (option to choose other hard-disk, choose the next number) 4 (info on chosen hard disk.) esc 5 (you look at all the hard disks... ) 4 und so weiter until you have all the details, and then esc esc Yes! DO use a notebloc, and take notes of the results you saw. You do NOT want to partition / repartition / format any drive by mistake, so you better LOOK, take notes, and be REAL CAREFUL. If you hit the wrong option and it asks to delete or create a partition, hit ESC and ESCAPE out of there. You really want to take these notes. You see, doing the above, you may find out about overlay and proprietary disk partitions. And, perhaps even more important, with these notes, you have a good chance to return to the state it was in after a fluke happened. TIP; TAKE the notes, and remember that notes PLUS a backup of the partition table is even better... I know flukes happen, and hate data loss.. It is why I mentioned you can get MBRworks or similar utils...) ============ Onwards.... We was talking about FDISK. Yes, the spiel has begun... YOU TOOK THOSE NOTES? I hope you did... You checked, and know which drive you want to partition, right? You have started fdisk from REAL MODE DOS, and selected the drive you want... (Drive 1 is default, it may NOT be the one windows is on, since windows will be on/(go onto) the first ACTIVE partition.) You should ALWAYS look which partitions you have, which letters a DRIVE has on it, and which partition shows an A in it (A for active, under status.) IF it shows a NON DOS partition, the drive may have overlay, linux, or NT (see further in thread). You ought to know... If you do not know why that NON DOS partition is there, you will have to find out. There is INFO about recognising what some partitions are FOR later in the thread. By the way, you should also take notes on the way you set it up. WHY? When you write down percentages or sizes you typed into the menus, you stand a far better chance of rescuing data at a later date... I say at a later date, because of Murphy's law. onwards; CAUTION! if a non dos partition exists and is active, you most likely DO NOT want to mess with it with FDISK. If the non-DOS is NOT active, and you want to repartition, you may have to activate the non-DOS to be able to remove another partition, and later on choose primary dos as active. You do NOT want to leave the NON-DOS active if it wasn't I ask to look into all this because you cannot delete an active partition while there are other partitions still present on this drive. You'll also find that you cannot delete a primary partition while an extended partition still exists on the drive. The following is menu stuff, Since this is just an example to show you what to look out for, you should use your head, and not always blindly follow these steps. If you need delete partitions Option 3 From the highest letter we work down to C: For instance E: (if it isn't active drive) esc 3 Delete logical drive D: (if it isn't active drive) esc 3 Delete extended partition esc 3 Delete primary DOS partition esc esc Do a cold boot (It's quite important you reboot.) Again fire up fdisk y --(if needed, first select drive)-- 4 (it shows you have no partitions? good! If a NON-DOS exists and you know why it is there, don't wipe it) esc 1 Make primary DOS partition. Well, here is where you decide how you set it up. I would say "dont let it use all space" because an extra partition is great to put data and installable files on. So, don't let it use all space. (And write down what you entered there... percent or size.) Then, create extended partition. (Let it use the rest.) It will say there are no logicals defined. Make them. (Select the the sizes you want, or let it use all space, and write down what you entered.) * If you had to make NON DOS active to remove PRI-DOS, this is the point you make PRI-DOS active * When you are finished with partitioning esc esc And again do a cold boot You have REBOOTED. This finalised what you just did with FDISK, and you are ready to format the drives. Here is something I highly recommend you do... a general TIP. When you are going to format, you better first run a dir command against the driveletters you intend to format. For instance dir C: /w /o /p This way you can look if it really is the drive you want to format. Once you are sure, you can format C: Similarly, For drive E: dir E: /w /o /p Check it out, before you run format E: Believe me, you better take these extra steps since you do not want to format a hard-drive or partition containing data you want to keep. TIP; you can add the line set DIRCMD=/w /o /p /a in autoexec.bat on the booter you use! When you do this, and you run DIR C: it will then function as if you typed the switches as well. If your booter does not set options for DIR, you can set dircmd=/w /o /p /a for the entire session from the prompt too. Okay? let's proceed. After fdisk and the REQUIRED reboot, you really should check content of the driveletter before you format it. dir C: /w /o /p (If empty, it will give an error.) format C: when format finishes, you can give the "drive" a meaningful name (label), or just hit enter.. if you give it a label, DO NOT CALL IT DOS nor WINDOWS dir D: /w /o /p (If empty, it will give an error. However, if it shows data, you found out why I ask to do that...) if empty. format D: dir E: /w /o /p (Honest, you better check...) format E: (if you need to) IMPORTANT, after formating, REBOOT You are ready to run setup. Run smartdrv (Well, I hope you put it on the bootdisk, it speeds up things.) Put windows cdrom in tray, and fire away (this is for win98) D: md win98 cd win98 copy [cdromdriveletter]:\win98\*.* (this copies the windows setup files and cabinets to hard drive) setup Personally, I think it is better to copy the "cabinet" files onto another partition or hard drive. (Just as long as it is on a drive-letter you can access...) to put them on C: you start that sequence with C: md win98 etc.. You may have noticed I don't have you do format C: /s Please, if you can avoid it, don't use the /s switch. Let Windows setup create the system files for you. (By the way, drive manufactor drivepreparation tools and overlay creation tools will ask for a system floppy with the boot system of the windows version you intend to use, and thus C: is made bootable. That's one more case in which you have to make sure the floppy has the correct version.) Oh, there are times you may need to use the /u or unconditional format switch. format C: /u Why? - When the new system you are going to set up is another version of windows than you used before... - Or when Fdisk version was different than the one it was fdisked with before you started.. - Or the hard disk came from another machine (differences in BIOS)... Then you may actually NEED that unconditional switch to clean off the old FAT copies. And folks, that can happen even after you used wipeout or manufactor disktools. It's rare, but it happens. I have seen it happen, and I know the /U switch still has its meaning. Sidenote; If the drive-letter is on a hard drive that has been properly done before, and you want to re-format it real fast. dir [letter]: format [letter]: /q /Q for Quickformat /U for unconditional. (You can believe me when I tell you this switch still has a function.) Another few sidenotes. I am well aware you don't always need to run fdisk before you (re-)format a drive... If you want to run windows setup on a new hard disk, I should also tell you that you ought to disable the motherboard antivirus feature in BIOS setup. With used drives, there is more to this! To explain; Suppose you want to run setup on a used drive, and have to reformat it. Now suppose that that hard disk had a antivirus program running, which loaded a boot sector protector. Then you could get into trouble if you do NOT disable the BIOS AV. You see, TWO such services can prevent a normal setup. I know, you click Continue to that warning message, but it is (sorta) on top of the other, see... There are rare cases where you cannot disable onboard AV, and it can prevent setup to "systemise" the drive. in these cases, you use setup /ir This /ir switch tells Windows Setup not to attempt to write to the boot sector. This should only be used when the anti-virus protection in CMOS cannot be disabled. Your computer will not reboot at the end of setup. You must boot using the Startup disk, SYS your hard drive, then boot normally to allow Setup to finish. Now, in some cases where a remnant of an Antivirus program loads from MBR, I have found that fdisk /mbr gets rid of it. HOWEVER! It is usually sufficient to disable the mobo AV, IF YOU PLAN on using the very same ANTIVIRUS program. After all, fdisk /mbr is not without dangers... Special Features and programs like antivirus and goback should be completely disabled before you run a repair setup over an existing windows installation. (if you ever did an over the top, in conditions like these, you will know how many error messages you saw.)
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#6
August 25th, 2002, 05:42 AM
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Booters and "PROBLEM" cdrom readers
- My bootdisks do not recognise the CDromDrive when I boot off them. And it wasn't broken just before I formatted. When EBD or setup floppy cannot read data from CDrom, and there is no proprietary cdromdriver on hard disk. Yep, what if the standard win 98 start disk and EBD won't read your old drive? This usually happens with older cdromdrives, and those connected to a soundcard. One can try cdromgod or the ultimate boot disk. http://www.cybertechhelp.com/html/downloads/index.php the CDgod and UBD floppies are on last page in bootdisk section Highly recommended... let's us not forget http://www.bootdisk.com they have great tools and articles there... About these downloads. when it is a exe file, you run it to make the bootfloppy. when it is a zip (an archive) it will usually contain a file you have to run to make the floppy. simply copying these files to a floppy does not make you a bootable floppy Please bear in mind that some downloaded floppies you found on the internet(usually with utilities, etc.. ) may still require you systemise the floppy to make them bootable. you can do this in windows explorer, richtclick A: properties of drive A: ( and copy system files ) or run sys A: from a dosprompt. (the readme they have will explain this. This is quite common actually.) but, lets continue with that proprietary CDrom drive driver... Of course, when you do not have the driver floppy, you can try find the drivers install disk using hardware model info. Worst case, you may have to open up that machine, and look on the CDrom-reader, and at what it is connected to. They are ancient by now, but they are still around. When a cdrom reader's ribbon is connected to a soundcard, you'll most likely have to use whatever info you found on the card because you want to install the controller driver for that card. (Interfaces can be sony, panasonic, mitsumi, atapi.) You may already have such an install floppy. Or, you have an ancient systemdisk with the DOS driver properly working. In the latter case, that floppy or hard drive has the drivers and configuration you need... If it is a bootfloppy, you can copy your card's CD driver .sys, and that floppy's config.sys and autoexec.bat to root of the newer version floppy. If that systemdisk you booted off with cdrom support was your hard disk, you copy the files to floppy, and you will need to edit some lines in A:\config.sys and A:\autoexec.bat, so as to point to the files on A: And then, you had better FIRST TEST the floppy... If it works, it shows the letter it assigned to CDROM. And then you run DIR [letter]: and find out wether it can see and copy files off the CDROM Well, I thought win3.1 and win95 users already know this stuff, but not all users do. ------- ------- Let us assume you only have a cdrom interface driver install disk. (The way it was done long ago, and win98 nor these other booters want to play nice with that thing...) Well, It's hard to come by, so make a diskcopy of it... (Believe me, one day you'll learn how useful diskcopy on a floppy really is) SINCE YOU WILL MAKE YOUR HARD DRIVE BOOTABLE, IT WOULD BE A GOOD THING IF YOUR BOOTER IS SAME VERSION AS THE Operating System YOU WANT TO INSTALL. btw, for this here method, if you had already used format c: /s with a different version, you are going to again use format. You see, with this method YOU MUST MAKE YOUR DRIVE BOOTABLE. Let's go... Have you made that EBD or "start disk" with smartdrv.exe and diskcopy.com on it ???? make a diskcopy of it delete A:config.sys delete A:autoexec.bat Then you open notepad (When you save, you need save with "all file types" option enabled.) [if you still know how to use EDIT in DOS, you can use that too] You create a file called A:\autoexec.bat All it really needs is (In notepad this is easy, paste the following into it.) LH smartdrv save it Again open notepad (or edit in DOS) to create A:\config.sys this one needs; device=himem.sys /testmem:off DEVICE=EMM386.EXE NOEMS files=60 buffers=10 dos=high,umb stacks=9,256 lastdrive=z Save it (I'll repeat it, when you save, you need save with "all file types" option enabled) Comment; when you're in a truly big fix, and no Dos based windows 9x machine is available, yes, you can do all this having nothing else than your EBD boot floppy. Write protect that floppydisk by sliding the little plastic tab away from the hole. Boot the formatted computer from it, and here we go like this dir C: (to make sure it is the drive you think it is) format C: /q /autotest when it finished, what won't take ages... reboot and then we go C: cd\ md dos cd dos copy a:\*.* cd\ copy C:\dos\*.* A: sys C: Remove floppy and reboot Pop that cdrom driver install disk in the floppydrive, and we go like this A: install hmmm, you could get invalid command or filename... if that happens, you have to change directory to the dos setup file (usually, but not always called install.exe) dir install.exe /s should find it. if not, try dir setup.exe /s (you could also first browse this floppy on your good computer) Let's say install.exe is found in a folder called FORDOS. Then you would type cd FORDOS install When it finished, remove floppy, and reboot from hard disk. With a bit of luck, you can read stuff on your CDROM. Why luck? Well, the adresses and dma you picked can be wrong. If so, assuming it was in FORDOS, again run A:\FORDOS\install I hear you wonder why I don't have you copy the floppy's content to hard drive. Most times this does work, but every so often, the installer wants to get the files off A: despite having been launched from C: (Lets hope you don't need do all this; after all, there are a good many sources for booters, and there is cdromgod, they truly did a great job.) Anyway... Once you can access your cdrom reader, FIRST copy the windows setup cabinets to a harddisk or partition. In other words, please don't launch setup from the CDROM. Why? Because you stand a real good chance you might not be able to continue after setup's first reboot... (you see, windows setup rems out these lines in config.sys and autoexec.bat, and it is often not yet able to access the CDROM by itself. IF that happened to you, you can still boot into SAFE mode, and run SYSEDIT, where you edit out the words REM by Windows Setup you find before the cdrom driver install lines. ====== a few notes on working in MsDOS real mode; Why use Backslash stardotstar in the copy command? \*.* There are times you do not need the wildcards *.* like copy A:\ There are times you do not need the \ like in copy E:\win98 There are times you DO need the \ because copy A: won't work And there are times where \ without *.* will not work like copy E:\win98\ Backslash stardotstar will always work in MsDOS's own commands. (if you ever used M$ xcopy from real mode DOS, you know it has more limitations than M$ xcopy32 in a windows dosbox.... and then you stumble on Odi's LFN tool. ODI LFN tools work in real mode MsDOS, but the copy functionality is not from M$, and the wildcards in LFN tools behave different.) sidenote; SIMPLE AND EFFECTIVE (but sometimes confusing) to get help on a command, type the command followed by /? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - If you are going to work on a NEW drive, I can tell you the following; - Hard Drive manufactor utilities are often A LOT FASTER and for partitioning and fast formating. Just don't use an overlay if your machine does not need it. (That's a fairly common mistake people make.) - I can also tell you that Operating systems like windows 2000 and XP have such fast drive formating tools of their own. - Just remember that you have to be REALLY careful when you have data you cannot afford to lose. (The process will warn you you are about to blow away data) Windows XP has things that annoy or stump me. I learned there is a way to get to a command prompt by using recovery console. I have tried quite a few available commands by now, and still have not seen a way it can be used to look at hard disks in these pussyfooting ways I described. (it does have tools, but I am not yet very familiar with them.) Most annoying thing is that one cannot run external commands from that prompt, tho. :(
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#7
August 25th, 2002, 05:43 AM
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Lets dig deeper into something which has been simmering all along.... Dynamic Drive OVERLAY
HOW can you use a booter when your hard disk uses an OVERLAY. You will remember that in some machines an overlay needs to load so as to get full capacity of hard drive seen. This also means that when Overlay is needed, you should not boot straight from your windows 98 CDROM to do the fdisking.. and.. YOU CAN ONLY BOOT THE MACHINE OFF A FLOPPY IF YOU MADE IT LOAD AN OVERLAY. sidenote; You could burn a bootable CDR that loads DDO once you have made a floppy that loads DDO. After all, you can use the DDO enabled floppy as boot image. How does DDO aka, Dynamic Drive Overlay manifest itself? Typically, when booting from a hard drive to which an overlay is installed, the overlay will pause for a moment and allow you to insert the floppy you wish to boot from. Sadly, in puters, nothing is "typical" Even when it once was typical, you won't no longer always see the message... and may still have overlay. Microsoft has some tips http://support.microsoft.com/default...;EN-US;q186057 In that article you can read that NOT ALL overlays show themselves during boot. (I was also thinking about BIOS and windows splash screens hiding these messages.) I will have to assume that you just read that article. Now, suppose that the message you "normally" see, for instance : "press spacebar to boot from floppy" got loaded from config.sys/autoexec.bat, and these are "somehow" deleted... Hmmm, you'll no longer see no message (and yet, the overlay may still be there, in MBR. And then you are called to have a look at that machine ...) There is something else about overlay. You should NOT use fdisk /mbr on these drives... Quote:
http://support.microsoft.com/default...;EN-US;q122221 Jeesh, I don't know my luck. Can you believe I still have MSAV.EXE file in my DOS folder ? ... And now you will probably go to drive manufactors to download the tool you need to make the overlay support floppy. Here are a few links rebuilding DDO http://www.seagate.com/support/kb/disc/dmbootd.html http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/...s/discwiz.html http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/index.html http://maxtor.com/portal/site/Maxtor...re%20Downloads http://support.wdc.com/download/index.asp http://www.fujitsu.com/download/hdds/ tip; google for dmdisk.exe http://www.samsung.com/Products/Hard...ties/index.htm Overlay creation tools SHOULD allow you to make a boot diskette that includes the overlay to support your drive while booting from floppy, and all of the drive manufactor diskmanagers I have looked at thus far provide this option (quite often in the utility's advanced menus.) (by extention, you can create a bootable CD with the DDO enabled diskette as boot image) So, if you find out or KNOW your hard drive needs an overlay, you should make yourself a few of them floppies. Believe me, it WILL be your only available tool one day... so you should. You could make just one, but floppies do go bad, so you better have more than one. Once you can boot with overlay support loaded, you can use all them other utilities you have on floppies or CDROM (if you made one that supports CDROM) or hard drive. Also note that an overlay may reside on the hard drive you boot off, to support the OTHER drive... Sounds strange? Well, think about it and you find it isn't! After all, DDO can be launched from a floppy too! You know, I wish it was simple... I remember a PUZZLER... You have win9x, and you boot to DOS from hard disk, and you cannot see files on the other hard disk, and yet, when you run windows 98 it can see and use the other hard drive. After closer examination, you find you do NOT have an overlay running. I know it sounds strange, but it can happen. DOS cannot, and yet, win 98 sees content of the drive when windows runs... Just think about it. It's kinda UN-funny when your install-files were copied to it and you need to get to them from within DOS. My guess is that this sort of puzzling behaviour is possible because windows has an extended bios driver loading. Many machines are set up with P&P OS enabled in BIOS, and windows dynamically uses BIOS (think about IRQ shifting)... and real mode Dos don't . I have encountered this puzzler only once, but I am sure there are other machines like this around. windows was running off the slower drive (a large drive had been added at a shop.) I had to install the DDO software to fix this. (and of course, I then made windows load from the faster drive ) ;) ----------- updated july 2006, link check
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#8
August 25th, 2002, 05:44 AM
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Hi again Gentlepeople,
you took notes, and found a few peculiar things... Well, in a far past, I put some effort into this, and I am not going to let it lay to waste... So here it is. Suppose you want to FDISK a machine
So guys, here is the question. What can it be for?? And what are the telltales? An overlay may even be a small DOS partition? (I remember that way back in the old days when 210MB hard drives was big, many "larger" (like 540Mb and more) drives had the utility on them, and booted as a floppy when you installed the new drive... During the overlay creation process, a real floppy was made..) What does an overlay in older and current drives look like? We are already aware of this article. http://support.microsoft.com/support.../Q186/0/57.ASP Whatever you see, it can also be an NTFS or Linux partition. Or maybe a small partition created by a boot manager? How do we find out? And it can be a suspend to disk partition as found in many notebooks, and some desktops. What are the telltales here? The last ones I can think of, and IMHO the more dangerous to wipe, are a drive tattoo (does that use a small partition? Where will a tattoo be found?) or a small partition where BIOS is copied onto. once again, how do we find out? So here it is. WHY is it there? And how does one find out what is in there... If we can help people do that "detective work" using freely available tools, all the better. There are reasons for this topic. For instance, ages ago a friend (Lincoln) and I helped a guy. At one point this guy found a 7 MB part after he had botched a win2000 installation and wanted back to win98. Oh yeah, RTFM ;) it may not be available... ------ Nick Grana told us this... Many reasons why a partition is not a dos partition. As a CNE, I always gave a 25-50MB dos partition to hold certain dos utilities and the rest was non-dos used for novell partitioning. And Bistro added this The only times I've encountered a non-DOS partition is on a propietary hard drive (or what USED to be one). Figured it was probably a hd diagnostic the company placed on it. (They sometimes show up as a non-dos partition). Would get rid of it only if I was doing a complete software upgrade. When Dodge chipped in, he told us this. Compaqs use a non-dos partition for the Setup information. So that you dont have to use the Diskettes. Very good unless you forget to put it back after deleting it, to wipe the HD clean. Only about 2mb in size.... Mark from lurkhere.com mentioned this, I use Partition Magic to set a small hidden partition on my secondary, so that the drive letters don't go jumping around, while I see how much of the alphabet I can use. What will that hidden part look like in Fdisk ? (NOTE by Jaak: Norton's gdisk can show and unhide these. ) It sure gets interesting... Other Partition Types The microsoft family DOS partitions work in all systems up through Win9x, but they are not always compatible. Versions before windows 95 OSR2 did not support FAT32. Windows NT and Windows 2000 use an NTFS file system. If you choose to install a NTFS onto the partition and later go back and use a Win9x operating system you will have to destroy the partition and start over. The file allocation structures are radically different. The same principle applies when trying to regress from a Windows 98 operating system to an earlier version of Windows. Backward compatibility just ain't there folks. ------- There are many other types like UNIX, Linux, and NOVELL, to name a few. -------- Older Compaqs (a brand of computers) use a non-dos partition for the setup information, so that you dont have to use the Diskettes. Very good unless you forget to put it back after deleting it, to wipe the HD clean. Only about 2mb in size.... Q- how does Compaq setup info on a non dos partition load? Is that little part active or non active? If I try to explain why I wanna know, I have to use laymans Flemish... In laymens, it's gotta be called to or call out. Also, can it be saved to floppy? A- On my Compaq I did the status and I found it all there. And yes, I took in the difference between advertised and actual sizes. It is a presario 5222 with a 8.4GB harddrive. The bomid number is the Compaq id that is on the harddisk. It can be restored or put on a blank drive (And those compaq models that use it, have a restore method for the Compaq utilities... Some of the members here have some experience with this...) -------- Question; HOW TO IDENTIFY TYPES? Maybe you want to do partitioning and you find the drive was used, the Operating system got butchered by a botched attempt to use another OS or somebody somehow broke a multi-OS. Answer; Unfortunately FDISK just won't cut it in terms of being able to show what's what on the "non-standard" partition types. Something like RANISH's part.exe is free, and runs in dos. It can help. There are other such things available too. And in the worst case it is possible to use a small Debug script to examine the info and get the partition type number. Then armed with a list of type numbers, you can see what's there. Partition identifiers; http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/partition...n_types-1.html http://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/partition...on_tables.html Ranish is a decent tool to find out what partition types you have. Ranish shows many partition types, including Novell. It does take some getting used to, the more I understand about hard disks, the easier ranish is to understand, because it lists everything. Cylinders, heads, sectors, partition types, mbr, code. Partition Magic is for those who don't want to have to understand the real basics, good for windows, but isn't nearly as powerful. Testdisk is also a very good tool, as is mbrwork. If you look at all 4 info areas, you can usually figure out what it is. Or, boot with the latest slack install cd, login as root, and type cfdisk. It'll show plenty types of partitions. The downside of cfdisk is it doesn't fit on a floppy, I think it needs about 4 megs, but you can create all those partition types with it. Question; That says slack install CD.. that's gotta be linux? Which precautions do we take so as not to molest anything? Answer; You just hit the q for quit to exit without changing anything. Ian wrote; This one covers the various variations of Unix - the *nix world. (unix and so on), There is source here for FreeBSD and Linux as well as some good links http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/user/76201/gpart/ I don't know if anyone followed the links, but here is one of the ways to go. Go to http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk and download testdisk. Unzip the package somewhere. Format a floppy with the basic system files. (FORMAT A: /s) Copy the cwsdpmi.exe and the testdisk.exe files (form the extracted DOS subdirectory) to the floppy and boot with the floppy - then run the program. If you're playing with your own system make sure you don't write anything to your disk! The first link will require a linux boot disk or similar or a compile using djgpp and most people on this board probably don't want to go that route. The TestDisk stuff I was pointing at doesn't require any Linux - just a floppy with Windows (DOS) system files. For those with a reading knowledge of C - the source code is also included. Here is some of the readme. ------------------------- TestDisk 3.2 checks the partition and boot sectors of your disks. It is very useful to recover lost partitions. It works with : - FAT12 - FAT16 - FAT32 - NTFS (Windows NT) - EXT2FS (Linux) - Linux Swap - IBM Multiboot - BeFS (BeOS) - UFS (BSD) - RaiserFS TestDisk runs under: - Dos, Win9x - Linux - FreeBSD TestDisk is under GNU Public License. Christophe Grenier ------------------------ If someone did want a floppy or CD bootable disk to use the Linux utilities then he/she could try http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/sys...ry/!INDEX.html for the "The most Linux on one floppy." stuff. http://ftp.toms.net/rb/ ------------------------ Stev-Rey mailed me and pointed me to this utility. http://www.aefdisk.com/ Craig Duckett’s DUG_IDE can come in really useful too. http://www.cybertechhelp.com/downloa...isk-management it gets the data from the drive electronics, and shows manufactor, model, and SIZE This can be useful to determine how much space there should be, and even more useful when one wants the drive manufactor tools but don't know the make. (and one does not have to open up the machine, either.) ;) this topic is long, and I truly hope this info is useful to you. I feel it can also be useful to you if you have to recover data off a drive that refuses to boot into the Operating system, but works and still has the data on it... - If that data has value, it is advised to not boldly go and alter things on that drive. Instead, you can use another machine to connect it to, and pussyfoot it. One could make a drive image or clone of the drive, and work on the image first... and please, the tools to get and save info are freely available, so please DO copy the masterboot track and partition info before you attempt repair... Meanwhile, I found out that new models of NEC- Packard Bell have hidden partitions where the restore CDROM images are stored on. =========== ============ Over time, I collected some more bits and pieces. Some warnings about fdisk /mbr It is often recommended that one use fdisk /mbr to sort out some problem. But, you had better known about the possible dangers. FDISK /MBR can cause serious problems when you
Fdisk rewrites the master boot record Here is what microsoft says about it. http://support.microsoft.com/support...s/Q69/0/13.ASP To kill master boot record infectors, it is often said that fdisk /mbr will kill it. (even when fdisk was not designed to be used as antivirus tool) BEWARE, The use of fdisk /mbr is NOT always good for virus removal. The One-Half virus is a classic example of this dangerous potential. Please use an Antivirus program to kill Viruses. These days, the CD they come on is bootable. Having said that, there are times when one uses fdisk /MBR using /MBR rebuilds MBR on drive 1 (the drive Fdisk reports as drive number one when FDISK /STATUS is used) It can also be done on drive two. FDISK /CMBR 2 Here is a simulation of what fdisk looks like in action. http://www.computerhope.com/sfdisk1.htm ABOUT fdisk /mbr and GOBACK Older versions of GoBack created a problem when one uses fdisk /mbr while GoBack is active. Newer versions are able to recognize and rehook itself to the MBR without using a copy of one of GoBacks files on a flopy while in DOS. GoBack is tied to the mbr, how else could such a program function? The things to do that comes to mind would be to disable goback for a few sessions, or fully uninstall goback. And do NOT blindly follow advice when someone tells you to do fdisk /mbr. When you uninstall goback, first disable bios anti-virus (The AV will yell at you when it sees a change to MBR.) While disabling/uninstalling goback, an installed AV program may also want to protect the mbr (message in the vein of "changes to boot record", etc.) You would want to allow changes. But hell, I have seen quite a few problems when two "services" acted simultaneuously. Take a motherboard AV feature and AV proggy, when both active, they may cause protective clashes, and you will often find that when you said YES, it was only to ONE of them... To disable GOBACK; 1- From the Start menu, click Shut Down, and then select the option to restart the computer. Hold down the CTRL + ALT keys simultaneously while tapping the G key right after the computer completes its Power On Self Test (POST) and before the GoBack message. Note: Timing is very important and it may take a few tries. GoBack prompts if you would like to force GoBack to unhook itself from the MBR. To have GoBack unhook itself, press the F key. A message prompting that GoBack successfully unhooked itself appears and the computer starts back into Windows. A message may appear that prompts that GoBack is currently disabled and would you like to re-enable it. Click Yes. If a message does not appear or if GoBack does not successfully enable again, follow the normal removal/reinstall procedure for your version of GoBack. 2- There is a method of booting off a flopy while GoBack is active. When you reboot the system there is a window that advices you to hit the spacebar if you want to restore your system. If you do, a menu apears, and one of the items is "boot from floppy". Just another note. When you use GHOST, you had better read the helpfiles about how to use Ghost when GOBACK is installed.
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#9
August 25th, 2002, 05:46 AM
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Here you read some some information I gathered and posted while GG1 had a problem with a dying COMPAQ's hard disk.
It was a modest sized bigfoot, and GG1 replaced it with large capacity drive... We do have some info on Compaq. I'll shamelessly copy it here. it was TRAIN who told us... Quote:
Then there was something I came across when I searched for mobo info on Greengoose1's machine. (We wanted to find out wether there was a BIOS limitation.) PLEASE NOTE; The info I got was for UK versions, US users should go to US support instead. Also note that when I last looked, the bookmark I had was dead, and the site I got the ilinks at has changed... http://www.uktsupport.co.uk/ What really bothers me right now is that I cannot again find these snips I saved and will quote here at COMPAQ itself?? One would be inclined to tell people to steer away from Compaq. I just wish I had saved a "single-archive" of the entire page... The info I saved tells us something about BIOSes on hard drives in COMPAQs. - - - - - [info saved from from a page I cannot retrieve] Quantum Bigfoot CY Hard Drives This update is aimed at Presario models what came with a 5.25-inch Quantum Bigfoot CY Hard Drive a diskware version prior to A03.0900. Under certain data recovery scenarios, the drive can corrupt internal data files, causing the drive to become inoperable. The update in this SoftPaq can only be used proactively, before the problem occurs. The softpaq number is SP5995. Click here for the installation instructions. NOTE: According to Compaq, it will have no detrimental affect to apply this update to a hard drive that does not need it or to a hard drive other than the affected 5.25-inch Quantum Bigfoot Hard Drive. Then, I read ... and saved ... Quote:
The machine needs this partition information to run and so it is a good idea to make a back-up, particularly if you plan to "fiddle" with the hard drive at all. A backup can be made using the "Create a Diagnostics Diskette" option from this very setup screen. It is very simple, two floppies are required (one labelled setup and the other labelled diagnostics) all instructions are given on screen and the process takes about 5 minutes. These disks are used to recreate the non DOS partition. These disks are also available (in compressed form) as sp7781.exe (Diagnostics) and sp2141.exe (Setup) from the softpaq page. REMARK... Mind you, YOU may need other softpacs I also looked at the US site. It has plenty updates, and drivers and such, but I did not find the restore Emergency rescue and utilities floppy GG1 needed. (GG1 had his on the recovery CD, I guess.) Linking to Compaq pages is useless, these links don't stay good for long... let's hope this text I saved helps compaq machine owners. (it is most certainly valid for OLDER models) ============ Another warning for Compaq users. Do NOT use wipeout on Compaq machines. I would also NOT use drive manufactor tools to repartition these drives. Unless you have the utilities disks to restore Compaq info to hard disk, (and even then) you could be in deep trouble. Now that Hewlett Packard and Compaq merged, it's going to be interesting to learn about how the new ones are set up. Let's not forget another trap And yes, another gripe. There was some Packard Bells I looked at, and when one runs the recovery CD like most persons would, you do wind up with one partition... JUST SUPPOSE they HAD REPARTITIONED IT with partitionmagic, and have DATA ON PARTITIONS... if you was unaware of this, you stand a good chance to wipe all data. OH yes, Hewlett Packard likes them that way too? When you have a service center look at your machine, they usually set it back to the state it was in when it left the factory, because that is the limit of the warranty.. In Other Words, bye bye data and i really mean goodbye. you don' have an easy means to ever get it back. July 2006, updated for broken links
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#10
August 25th, 2002, 05:47 AM
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So, lets look at some possibilities.
A friend I admire once posted a good article on partitioning a HEWLETT PACKARD I am going to do it. Repartition this HD. I e-mailed Hp today and got a positive response. An Hp can be repartitioned using Fdisk. The technique is a bit different from the standard, the Bios needs to be reset and you use the restore disk to do the job, not a floppy bootdisk. The e-mail is quite long to post here. But there have been a few people asking about it lately. I have a 42.9 GIG HD with FAT32. Too big. So I am posting this for anyone who wants to know it can be done and how. From HP tech Support: Quote:
Quote:
============ We just learned it can be done... And you know... Personally, I would add a second hard disk, because, after all, when you partitioned it to have a data partition, and later on it gets blown away by hitting the wrong option while running the recovery program... yeah... :( Friends sent me floppies to look at. I looked at some files from Compaq recovery floppies. They too have menus where you can select to make more than one partition. Packard Bell have these options too. Problem with that is that PB uses gdisk, and when gdisk finishes, all partitions are empty. Thus, IF you hit the wrong option when you in fact needed a windows repair session, you stand a good chance to lose all data. It's just my opinion, but I really think a second hard drive is a good idea when you have machines like these. (And even in those you build yourself.) Having said that... I have yet another gripe with these machines. When you add a HDD and a burner, their powersupplies get maxed out. (I've replaced PSU in all the PB I worked on) Meanwhile, three older packard bells I looked at did not have NON-DOS nor hidden partitions... And the newer ones?? The info I got at PB site was that they have placed the recovery cdroms on a hidden partition. I regret I could not have a good look at this on my niece's machine. I think we covered most pitfalls now...
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#11
August 25th, 2002, 05:48 AM
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we almost forgot laptops...
--------------------------- Suppose you have an upgrade 9x or ME (these CD's are not bootable.) OR... you find it cannot boot off CD. And suppose you have formatted hard disk in a laptop. (It may come to that, one day) You just need a booter... YET, suppose the lapper has a swapout-drive-bay (iow, you have a laptop in which floppydrive and cdrom drive are docked in same bay, so you cannot have them at same time. And, you have no working HOTswap utility running nor hot-swap button... Erm... then... booting off floppy, it will never find CDROM... So, what do you do? You can make the most basic CDROM support booter there is It will use NO ramdrive Since you will MAKE YOUR HARD DRIVE BOOTABLE, it would be a good thing IF YOUR BOOTER has SAME VERSION as the Operating System you are going to install. btw, for this here method, if you had already used format c: /s you are advised to again use format like this format C: /q /autotest after which you restart from floppy You see, this method assumes that YOUR DRIVE IS EMPTY, and that YOU MUST STILL MAKE YOUR DRIVE BOOTABLE. Have you made that EBD or start disk with a copy of smartdrv.exe and diskcopy.com on it ? Make a diskcopy of it then Delete A:\config.sys and A:\autoexec.bat Then you open notepad (When you save, you need save with "all file types" option enabled.) [if you still know how to use EDIT in DOS, you can use that too] You create a new file called A:\autoexec.bat All it really needs is (in notepad this is easy, paste the following into it ) LH MSCDEX.EXE /D:cdrom001 SET DIRCMD=/w /o /p /a set temp=c:\ set tmp=c:\ LH smartdrv Save it as A:\autoexec.bat Again open notepad (or edit in DOS) and create a new file called A:\config.sys This one needs; lastdrive=z device=himem.sys DEVICE=EMM386.EXE NOEMS device=oakcdrom.sys /D:cdrom001 files=60 buffers=20 dos=high,umb stacks=9,256 Save it as A:config.sys Please note, OAKCDROM.SYS even when VERY generic, does not in fact support all drives. But it works on MOST cases, and having it try all just takes time... (I bet it works in most laptops, as I have yet to see a laptop with SCSI.) More to the point, since there is no drive in the bay, when you boot off this floppy, it reports it cannot find a CDROM DRIVE. So, you will have to put the files from floppy onto the hard drive... boot off it (note, if that laptop uses overlay, make sure that overlay was loaded) C: md DOS cd DOS copy A:\*.* cd\ copy C:\dos a: sys C: After it finished, pull the floppy out shut Put CD-drive in bay Boot up You stand a good chance it will find the CDROM drive.. IF NOT, we can try use ALL drivers you find on the EBD or on the START DISK rather than just OAKCDROM.SYS If that fails, you shall again have to look at that "problem cdrom method" to install your own from a driver install floppy you downloaded or have... it may even have a readme! Comments I know that editing is work, and that there are other ways... But please?... IF YOU COPY THE CONFIG.SYS AND AUTOEXEC.BAT FROM A START DISK TO ROOT OF HARD DRIVE, YOU MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT LEAVE THEM IN ROOT WHEN YOU ARE READY TO RUN SETUP... You only need the section that loads drivers! And you only need it that one time. (When you look at them, you find these files on EBD are simpler than the ones in Start disk.) either way, Once you have access to the CD, do NOT launch setup from the CD itself. YOU HAVE to copy the setup files to hard disk... (When you first put the setup cabinets onto hard disk, you avoid tons of trouble.) C: md wincabs cd wincabs copy D:\win98 setup /p j An upgrade version will ask proof of an earlier version. You can show it the CD or floppies from the earlier version. = = = = = = = argh... I am thinking everybody uses 98 them other folks with other OS do it with little differences... copy D:\win9x (if you use win ME) setup copy D:\win95 ( if you use win 95) setup /p j a few members had to do this... (they had a common floppy/CDROM bay, w/i the kind I call a swap-bay.) = = ===== = = ====== = = Even when it is not a good idea to copy a start disk to root of C: there is a method which copies the "start disk" to hard drive. Using that method you needn't edit any files, but you have to do a few other things instead. This method got named "laptops revisited" ... .............. Laptops revisited primo; you don't have a bootable CDROM (or must not boot off CD because of overlay). secundo; it's a swap bay simple solution You can do the floppy/cdrom bay trick without editing files. it's formatted, and only has a C: partition boot from floppy (if you have overlay, make sure it loads) btw, for this here method, if you had already used format c: /s you are advised to again use format like this format C: /q /autotest and restart from floppy You see, once again, this method assumes the drive is EMPTY, and if it is already made bootable, the systemfiles on that drive will cause an error dialog... Copy cannot overwrite systemfiles if attribute is not changed prior. Thus, if you don't want to have to change atrributes while in DOS, it is easier for this method if it is empty. That ramdrive I always avoid would be D: and no CDROM C: cd\ copy A:\*.* copy D:\*.* A: sys C: shut OR; if you avoided the RAMdrive... by using a floppy you made by tools\mtsutil\fat32ebd\fat32ebd.exe (it don't make a ramdrive, that one...) C: copy A:\*.* A: sys C: shut put the CD tray in and boot after booting the machine with all them files from the floppy on it, one looks for the letter given to CDROM device With a little luck, you see what letter was given to the CDROM-drive I am Assuming you had that bit of luck. Since I prefer the EBD, I am assuming it is assigned letter D: Here goes you are at C:\>_ prompt cd\ md DOS cd DOS copy C:\*.* cd\ md win98 cd win98 copy D:\win98 (and after it copied the files...) del C:\*.* (PLEASE delete these files in root.) setup /P J viola... once again, there are little variations for the other Windows 9x versions. Millenium uses win9X folder cd\ md DOS cd DOS copy C:\*.* cd\ md win9x cd win9x copy D:\win9x (and after it copied the files...) del C:\*.* (PLEASE delete these files in root.) setup (no P j here) ------ windows 95 the folder here is called win95 cd\ md DOS cd DOS copy C:\*.* cd\ md win95 cd win95 copy D:\win95 (and after it copied the files...) del C:\*.* (PLEASE delete these files in root.) setup /P J --------- Hmmm, I hear you ask why put all of them files on root of C: and then remove them? Well, one REALLY DOES NOT want to leave this UNEDITED floppy's config.sys and autoexec.bat "boot menu" in root of C: Yep, you wanted CDROM support this one time but you do not want to load all the other stuff in the future. Yep, soon as you was able to copy content from CDROM to C: you no longer need the files in root of C: and leaving them there could become a problem. Still, they can be useful for a re-install later on, hence I ask to copy them to C:\DOS The earlier lapper solution had edited files on floppy. They can be left as is, but they can also be deleted just before you run setup. Windows setup REM's out the the lines it don't need. It does NOT rem out lines for ramdrive and other things like these menus, though... and THAT is why the standard start up disk files SHOULD be deleted before launching setup. The installfiles, aka cabinets, are now in a folder on your hard drive (for instance, C:\win98, or C:\win95 ) and drivers installation will be easy because you won't be doing a disc jockey act. ================= btw, if you did NOT have that bit of luck, you have to install that particular mousetrap of yours... (pretty much same stuff as described earlier in Problem CDROM) You will have to get the install floppy for your particular laptop. (btw, they have readme files, these things...) Mind you, the few times we had to mess with laptops, we found that the OAKCDROM.SYS driver was adequate. Actually, that method was easier than what the driver installer had us go thru... << end of lapper revisited. =================== Lets tell a little tale. There are Some machines that (should) have RECOVERY and RESTORE discs I was at my nieces', and after helping them with tax return forms, I had to look at that PackardBell/NEC Pentium4 they bought early this year. it runs XPhome on a single partition. Some stuff had to be uninstalled. Hey, Hmmmm, NO restore CD ? I thought I would find them on the hard drive, but could not locate anything looking like them. (I think they must be hidden, and I was not going to alter the system too much...) At first I also could not find a util or reference in help on how to make them. UNTIL I looked in smart restore, where the utility to make them was available for install. done it, and after it rebooted itself, I found an icon on desktop. That thing burned three restore discs (to my surprise, it even dutifully checked each disc after it burned one, before it said it was successfuly made.) and when all three was done, it promptly zapped the images off hard disk, rebooted itself, and the restore icon "died". I then made two diskcopies of the recovery floppy You may wonder, "What is this about?" WELL, suppose they had had a real baddy... How on earth would they have been able to use recovery? You bet I uttered some of my thoughts... The MEDION PC I looked at in December, did not have the discs either. There was differences. (and the manual told us to make them...) It did not verify media after burn, but they was not zapped off after one made them either.. Plus that they was somewhat safer on a separate partition ... Folks, if you buy such a machine and find you do not have these recovery or restore discs, you better start finding out how you burn them. And yes, DO make a diskcopy of the recovery recue floppy as well. ===================== do take care of your recovery discs. Keep them safe. The programs on them can cost as much as that lapper or desktop... ===================== What are boot disks used for? I mean, other than the bog standard boot to begin setup? (Which, when the machine isn't bog standard, can already be rather tricky.) I think I will try answer this by asking questions. Emergency Boot Disk? Why is it called Emergency? Is your booter sufficient for data recovery? Which utils does one use on them? We've seen mention of ghost, xclone, Long File Name tools (odi's tools) I can also mention Winternals' NTFSPRO (ntfs in DOS), and tiramisu aka tira32.exe (currently ontrack recovery tools) Then there are partitioning tools, antivirustools... And maybe other things that go bump in the night. I wonder, which are used most by the somewhat advanced tinker, And what is used by the real pro... One of the reasons I brought up these last few questions was that PackardBelll-NEC my niece has. It had XP running on a single partition, which IMHO, is real stupid. Looking at the many freebie programs that come on magazine cover CD and DVDs (and downloads) I have accumulated a few very useful tools over the years. Some of them are used for data recovery. These tools almost invariably need you have; either / OR a second hard drive, a second partition, (if one wants to save data, a floppy drive and seven gazillion floppies is not really my idea of fun..) It makes sense. you do NOT want to write recovered data to the drive you are recovering it from. In many cases, the tools need writeble media to save settings and logs to. No can do when you booted off CD and run the tools off CD... For instance, you do not want to save partition info onto a drive you are about to wipe clean, so you need to save it to another disk (second hard drive or partition, or floppydrive using letter B: And you must remember... "Some" tools simply won't go/save to B: Tools like Powerquest LOST and FOUND require you make three diskettes. (And it won't save recovered data to same driveletter...) Tira32 requires you have a floppy and a second hard drive Ghost and GhostPE requires you have at least a second partition (in FAT16 or FAT32) and wants to write error logs. IMHO, the floppydrive is not dead yet. have I mentioned that fat32ebd.exe will not write to B: ? edited, august 2006
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#12
August 25th, 2002, 05:49 AM
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Partitioning tools.
Partitioning tools have differences.
Norton's gdisk is completely command driven in DOS Microsoft's Fdisk is menu driven in DOS. Windows XP and windows 2000's disk manager have a completely different look.. Booting off the CD you can prepare a hard drive in minutes because fast formating is present. That is pretty much like drive manufactor diskutils, which can be a godsend for the earlier windows platforms. 2000 and XP automatically make an 8Mb partition which you do not see on a hard disk prepared with fdisk. I have to mention that fdisk, gdisk, NT diskpart, 2000&XP's diskmanagement and manufactor disktools are not meant to resize partitions without loss of data. Ranish and Mbrwork are graphical shells running in DOS. They are free tools, and a tool like Ranish can resize partitions. (it is not intuitive, though.) We have now hit on resizing, "on the fly". When you let commercial or free programs just partition or repartion a hard disk, you lose all data on that hard disk. Tools to resize without loss of data were developed. Many people use Partition magic to resize partitions. It is NOT a free tool. Partition magic can be run in windows, but it has to make the changes in DOS. I think it is better to launch its shell in DOS. I never run these tools in windows. Resizing is ALWAYS risky! Before you do it, you want to make sure you have backups of your data. You know, once the data is actually moving on the drive, there is NO going back. If you get stuck, you may not be able to recover data with off the shelf tools. I'll try to explain. I once had (that must have been 1999) a drive with three partitions, all three had data on it, and I formated all. I then used fdisk to delete the three partitions, and created two instead. After formating, I put data in part one. I then decided I wanted to try Norton Disk Doctor... I did not let it recover data, but saw what was in store... Quick-formatted the thing all over again, and fdisked it to the original three partitions (I knew the EXACT sizes I had to enter because I had taken NOTES.) Again formatted all three... And I then again used Norton Diskdoctor.. Et viola, it found the "deleted" data structures and it recovered some 9 giga worth of data in areas that had not yet been overwritten by other data. (and it did a pretty good job on the NEWER data that had been in part 1 while it had been split in only 2 too!) Now, that sounded like fun, no? But... You have to realise that when you RESIZE on the FLY, the datastructure tables and data itself actually MOVES to new place on the platters, and I really think NDD would not have beeen able to recover any of it if you happen to experience a fluke while it is doing that. One COULD have tried the norton utilities to recover some after getting the drive re-partitioned to original partition sizes, but I really have my doubts. I have heard of people who wound up in such a situation, and I cannot recall success stories coming back. This is the prime reason I take notes. And yes, I sometimes use partition table recording utilities. Like many others I used cloning software like ghost or acronis, and recommend you clone the system partition. (also bear in mind that the drive manufactor utility often has a cloning tool...) ====== one more important observation. I mentioned it before.. When doing things that require direct disk action such as setup and format, and resizing with disktools like partitionmagic, you will avoid problems when you first DISABLE your motherboard's BIOS ANTIVIRUS feature, AND the antivirus programs you had installed. Kind regards, Jaak
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#13
September 4th, 2002, 03:12 AM
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Thanks for a very informative Post. I wish I would have saw this (Before) I started screwing around with my Compaq. Later, topcat_ohio
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#14
October 31st, 2002, 01:49 PM
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Hi, Thanks.
Ahem.... There have been problems with floppies interchangability with 98 and XP. I have seen it myself, and I also found that making floppies from self extracting images of floppies did not work in XP. OR, that you could not see what was on them once you plonked them in the FDD of an XP machine. It also happened in windows 2000. (I also saw that if I just ignore, and retry, it often sees it) another issue in XP cannot format 720KB diskettes http://support.microsoft.com/default...;EN-US;Q302113 and, before I go on, an M$ article on how you install recovery console. http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;307654 ========= and now, some paste from an article I came across. XP nightmare I can't start my system! My Windows XP machine may be toast, but since I can't boot the computer, I'm in the dark. I'm used to grabbing the boot disk I made, sticking it in the floppydrive, and rebooting the PC that way. But as far as I can tell, Windows XP won't boot from a floppy. Well, it's true that Windows XP can't boot from a DOS disk (a start-up floppy for Windows 95, 98, and Me) because, unlike those older operating systems, it doesn't run on top of the ancient DOS foundation. Instead, like Windows 2000, XP runs on the Windows NT kernel and is completely independent of DOS. Fortunately, XP offers alternatives to the traditional DOS start-up disk. one method involves your XP CD, and the other a good ol' 3.5-inch floppy. If you can't boot your PC, your first move should be to reach for your Windows XP Setup CD. That's the one that came with your computer or OS upgrade. Put that CD in the drive and turn on the computer. Most newer PCs boot from the CD-ROM drive, but you should check now to make sure yours does in case of a future crash. So, as a test, insert your Windows XP Setup CD and reboot the computer. If Setup starts, you're good to go. If not, you need to modify the computer's BIOS to make the PC boot from the CD-ROM drive. Turn on the computer and enter BIOS setup. Look for the Boot menu option. If it doesn't show up, check the other screens; the boot order is often tucked away on an advanced settings page. Once you're at the Boot menu, follow the instructions, which vary, depending on the BIOS, to set the CD-ROM drive as the first device your PC uses to boot. Save the changes and exit BIOS Setup. With the BIOS setup behind you, insert the Windows XP Setup CD, turn on the PC, and when you see the Welcome To Setup message, press R to launch the Recovery Console. The Recovery Console (RC) looks and acts like DOS, but it's all XP. For info on Recovery Console, read this Microsoft Support article here http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;314058 This article includes a full list of its commands. The article I got this info from says you can also launch RC without wading into Setup; just insert the CD and type D:\i386\winnt32.exe /cmdcons (the example here is where D: is the drive letter of the CD drive.) Only advanced and power users should try RC's features; get a Windows-savvy friend to help if you're clueless. If you're comfortable monkeying around, the Recovery Console lets you copy or replace crucial operating system files, disable or enable devices, and repair the file system boot sector or the Master Boot Record, either of which, if corrupted, will prevent XP from starting. Sure, RC can repair and resuscitate Windows XP, but what if you don't have the know-how to handle the Recovery Console and just want a down-and-dirty way to boot from a floppy? Microsoft does help you construct a 3.5-inch disk that will boot Windows XP, but you have to know where to look, and you'll need to have the floppy available in your time of need. (There is a way to create such a floppy on another machine, but it's involved. More on that later.) To get started, format a blank 3.5-inch disk using Windows XP, then copy the following files to it: ntldr and ntdetect.com. You'll find them in the I386 folder on your hard drive: Also find and copy the boot.ini file from the root drive, usually C: drive. The boot.ini file may be tough to find, since it's a system file and is hidden from normal view. Even a search of the hard drive using Start/Find may not locate it. Here's how to make it visible so that you can copy it to the floppy. Use Control Panel > Folder Options > View, then select the "Show hidden files and folders" box. Next, clear the check mark in the "Hide protected operating system files" box. Click OK. Using Windows Explorer or My Computer, navigate to the root drive, usually C: drive, typically labeled Local Disk in Explorer. Right-click the file named boot, which is the boot.ini file, and choose Send To and 3½ Floppy to copy the file to the floppy disk you've been building. Label this disk--XP Start-up works nicely--and set it aside. When you need it, start your computer using the floppy, then log on to Windows XP as you normally would. For more information about creating an XP start-up floppy using a Windows 95, 98, or Me machine or using a different XP PC than the one you want to boot, head to this page at Microsoft Support's Web site. http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;305595 for windows 2000 > Description of the Windows 2000 Recovery Console http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;EN-US;229716 =============== and this comes from another article I found; Homemade remedy Build your XP boot disk manually instead. Here's how. First, you need to finesse the Folder Options so that Search can locate your system's boot files, some of which may be hidden. From Windows Explorer, pick Tools > Folder Options, click the View tab, and check "Show hidden files and folders" under "Hidden files and folders," then clear the check mark from "Hide protected operating system files" and click OK. Insert a blank, formatted floppy into the floppy drive. From the C: drive, copy these files to the floppy: boot.ini NTLDR ntdetect.com bootsect.dos (if present) ntbootdd.sys (if present) Use XP's Search to find these files. Put the floppy you just made in a safe place. If Windows XP won't boot from the hard drive alone, stick the floppy in the drive and give it a whirl. ===================== when I read this, I thought I'd mention that one can do same thing with windows 9x you CAN do it at the command prompt format A: /U /S attrib C:\msdos.sys -s -h copy C:\msdos.sys A: (overwrite? Yes) attrib C:\msdos.sys +s +h attrib C:\io.sys -s -h copy C:\io.sys A: (overwrite? Yes) attrib C:\io.sys +s +h but... it is easier when you want to do that from within windows... If you first unhide the files in folder view options) either way you do it, that floppy launches you straight into windows... ========================= there is something else. Strange that it only came up now... In windows 95 and 98 you normally don't have your CDROM while in safe mode, but you CAN make it happen. you first make it boot with CDROM support now, launch windows in safe mode C:\windows\win /D:m and you should have windows safe mode, AND have your CDrom available) btw, for all the options just go win /? - - - - - - of course, to have CDROM support in safe mode you have to have a booter that loads CDROM support. Now, if you have no boot disk, and cannot boot into normal windows but can get into safe mode, you can just as easily make it load CDROM support while you are in safe mode. begin like this search for oakcdrom.sys it ought to be in windows\command\ebd folder. if you don't find it, and you have the options folder or win98 folder on hard drive, you can also get it out of base5.cab run sysedit in autoexec.bat you add the line C:\windows\command\MSCDEX.EXE /D:cdrom001 in config.sys you add the line device=C:\windows\command\ebd\oakcdrom.sys /D:cdrom001 (use the path to the folder you found or saved oakcdrom.sys in.) save, and exit next reboot, you can have the CDROM in DOS and safe mode ========================= here are some other tips I came across. a pound of cure You tried to kick-start the computer. No go. You broke out the crash cart. Still no pulse. You failed to build a boot disk earlier. You are so doomed. Whatever can you do now? Safety first See if you can run Windows in Safe Mode. As the PC boots, press the F8 key to display the Advanced Options menu and select Safe Mode. If Windows eventually appears, you can work in Safe Mode to uninstall a recent program, often the cause of such disasters, or return to a roll-back point using System Restore. If that doesn't work and you're using XP, reboot and press F8 again, but this time select "Last known good configuration" to return your system to the last working configuration. This solution may work if your PC is missing a driver or if a driver conflicts with hardware or other previously installed drivers. Unfortunately, "Last known good configuration" won't revert your files to their former state, so it doesn't fix problems caused by corrupted or missing files. ============== Boot transfusion Next trick? Grab a floppy and find another computer running the same edition of Windows as that of your dead computer. In the second computer, create a boot disk that will fire up your system, following the previous instructions. Afterward, you may be able to use System Restore to roll back a Windows Me or XP PC to a point when the computer worked properly. for windows 98, to restore a previous registry (some sort of rollback is available in 98. It is done from the command line in real mode DOS... NOT a DOSBOX.) C:\windows\command\scanreg /restore Even 95 had a rollback of sorts, ERU and ERD was just not installed by default. Kind regards, Jaak
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#15
November 14th, 2002, 11:41 AM
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since this topic is also about setup, why not expand on something I briefly mention.
I mentioned a CD you make for a preconfigured setup I wanted a CD like this, and I needed a good method. A handy tool I discovered was xclone. http://www.mdgx.com/dos.htm http://www.softlookup.com/download.a...2&DID=4J58YURT I used it to copy the boot image off a win98 CD to floppy yep, you can use that for your own "boot off hard disk" "boot off CDROM" booter. so, get xclone unzip it and copy it to hard disk let's say C:\xclone.exe now you boot from the CD you want to get to the DOSPROMPT you are at A:\>_ C:\xclone a: b: that is [driveletter xclone is on]:[path xclone is in]\xclone A: B: The disk you can make by above xclone method lacks edit.com, and the ebd.cab file in there is not used. So, you can delete ebd.cab, and add a few files of your own to that floppy! Just remember there CAN be an overlay on the hard disk, and that when you boot off CDROM, you have bypassed the overlay... let's continue with that preset CD for win98.... (it may not be the right tool for ME, but 98's msbatch did also work for winME) anyway, the windows 98 CDROM has a tool to create your own msbatch.inf Let me tell you how I did it ------------- using xclone, I created that floppy couple times. I was running win98se, and installed the batch tool tools\reskit\batch\setup.exe you then find the tool in programs launch the MsBatch program. select the options you want installed. unselect what you don't want installed. there is a setting to skip creation of floppy (I tackle this by using setup switches.) if this is for personal use you can key in your own personal licence key. (if not, don't) save the file you create with a short name. like C:\preset1.inf copy that preset1.inf file to the floppy copy xclone.exe to that floppy now suppose you want to run this installation over the top of an older one, because you must repair it I know you could use xclone and even copy, but I found cc.exe more suitable for overwriting an existing but possibly infected folder. So, I think you also want to get CC.exe you find it in cc108dos.zip http://www.simtel.net/pub/pd/27097.html copy CC.exe and CC.DOC to the floppy (you might as well read the Doc.) ============== and now, we will change autoexec.bat and config.sys on that floppy A:\autoexec.bat --------------------- @ECHO OFF set EXPAND=YES SET DIRCMD=/W /o /p /a cls set temp=c:\ set tmp=c:\ path=a:\ IF "%config%"=="NOCD" GOTO QUIT LH MSCDEX.EXE /D:mscd001 /L:R set Path=A:\;%CDROM%\;C:\;%CDROM%\dos9\; echo. IF "%config%"=="SETUP_CD" goto AUTOSETUP GOTO QUIT :AUTOSETUP set CDROM=FOO23 FINDCD.EXE if "%CDROM%"=="FOO23" goto NOCDROM path=a:\;%CDROM%\ %CDROM% A:\cc \WIN98 C:\WIN98 /b /r+ /u /s A:\cc A:\preset1.inf C:\win98 /r+ echo. c:\WIN98\SETUP.EXE PRESET1.INF /NF /NTLDR /is /iv /p j /d goto QUIT :NOCDROM echo. echo Windows 98 Setup.exe was not found. echo. :QUIT ============ config.sys ------------- [menu] menuitem=SETUP_CD, pre-configured Setup. menuitem=CD, Start computer with CD-ROM support. menuitem=NOCD, Start computer WITHOUT CD-ROM SUPPORT. menudefault=CD,30 menucolor=7,0 [SETUP_CD] device=himem.sys /testmem:off device=oakcdrom.sys /D:mscd001 device=aspi8dos.sys device=flashpt.sys device=aspicd.sys /D:mscd001 [CD] device=himem.sys /testmem:off device=EMM386.exe noems device=oakcdrom.sys /D:mscd001 device=flashpt.sys device=aspicd.sys /D:mscd001 [NOCD] device=himem.sys /testmem:off device=EMM386.exe noems [COMMON] files=30 buffers=12 dos=high,umb stacks=9,256 lastdrive=Z ============== You must have seen that I put DOS9 in the path somewhere... well, you can plonk all your DOS-tools and utilities in a folder called DOS9 on that CDROM, and have them available. also copy content of windows\command and windows\command\ebd folder to dos9 and while you are at it, why not also copy content of oldmsdos from the CDROM I also copy the norton utils that can be run in DOS there... when you choose with CDROM support, then you have access to all these tools in a single place. Whatever driveletter the CDROM got, as long as the machine found the win98 folder with setup.exe on that CDROM when it booted off CD, you will find that they are in the path. ( I am looking at changing the menu so as to avoid some problems with utils that want to save logs, but that involves a ramdrive... ) anyway... The setup switches will not kill a machine (far from it, it is intended to repair a broken windows), but I would advise you to run trials on a test machine. when you made a CDRW to test this, you really want to see that option "boot from hard disk", "boot from CD" I made this floppy and CD and found it a real timesaver. TIP 1, include your hardware drivers and directX8.1 and other essential updates etc etc on the CD Tip 2, if this is for home use, you can cc your driver folder(s) to hard disk too, just like you cc'd win98! (btw, you can put personal drivers folders in win98 folder, and it would get copied along by the cc line that copies win98 folder, since this is set to copy subfolders too '-) (remember that cc is set to overwrite, and this is done to overwrite files that may have been infected) I used a bootable CDRW to test this thing, and later made a couple copies on good reflectivity CDR. sidenote; you may have noticed smartdrive is NOT used, and that is on purpose here... (because xclone and cc can have issues with cached cdrom reads) sidenote two; when you want to use smartdrv and have it speed up CDROM access too, it must be on the disk, and loaded after MSCDEX was loaded. ---------------- users of win95 can find a similar msbatch creation tool under administrative tools http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/downloads/ international users http://support.microsoft.com/common/international.aspx they can find jo.sys on the net one can also find findcd.exe and this can be internally changed. (they have an explanation at that site where one finds the version for that bootable ghost CD...) http://members.ozemail.com.au/~rosss...sec3.html#bk32 Well, if it can be changed to search ghost.exe, it can also be made to look for win95\setup.exe ------------------ I came across another interesting snippet of txt. it's about the NT variants. Burn the I386 cabs onto a CD, and then use something like EZCD Creator to make it bootable with a DOS floppy. one can run WINNT.EXE from within DOS, and you're all set. even better, when you make your own ANSWER file, you can walk away ( winnt.exe /u:d:\answerfile.txt) while it installs. Its nice that MS allows you to begin these installs from within good old DOS. (that was still possible in XP, but no longer possible in Vista) edited, feb 2007
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